Evidence of meeting #54 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was universities.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President, Simon Fraser University
It's a great question.
I actually don't have data on that ready to hand. My sense is that we are seeing similar pay gaps across European countries and the U.K. I don't have information on Australia and New Zealand.
Provost and Vice-President Academic, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
I can provide a succinct comparator there.
It may be helpful to know that in New Zealand currently, which is where my accent comes from, there is a rigorous debate under way for pay parity. It's differentiated, as President Johnson spoke of before. Within the female workforce, it's further differentiated by women of colour and those under-represented groups within the post-secondary sector as well. We're seeing internationally that a refined analysis of groups within groups is a key part of moving forward towards pay equity.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
If you could each undertake to see if you can find out a little more, and if there's one country in particular that seems to be doing a better job on this and we can learn from it, that would be great.
Dr. Airini, I have a couple of things. President Johnson mentioned that UBC actually wasn't keeping track of data with respect to race, indigeneity, disability, etc. Are you doing that at the University of Saskatchewan? Are you tracking that data at all?
Provost and Vice-President Academic, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Yes, we are.
Provost and Vice-President Academic, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
We've been able to begin that work this year, because we have the deybwewin-taapwaywin-tapwewin truth-telling policy in place, which makes it possible now to have a verification of membership or citizenship in place. Rather than self-identification for our indigenous colleagues, it's through the verification of citizenship and membership.
We have begun revisiting the data as a result of the policy coming into place. The reason that I suggested it—and I appreciate the question—is that it's a reminder of how important policy is in order to create the conditions for the right work to happen and to get us to where we want to be. That's the vital role this committee plays.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you.
In your opening statement, you said that there are “pay discrimination actions” at play. Can you elaborate on that, please?
Provost and Vice-President Academic, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Could you remind me of what I said?
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
You mentioned that there were some things that were operative. Basically, you were trying to address why there is this pay discrimination and the gender gap. You said that there are some pay discrimination actions. Based on some of the other testimony, I thought that maybe we'd want to hear a little more on that.
Provost and Vice-President Academic, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Thank you for listening so closely to what I was saying. I appreciate it.
Provost and Vice-President Academic, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
These are recurring points, although I have one new one to add in there.
The recurring ones are around full professor ranks: who gets there and in what time.
Another is around starting salaries themselves. We know the cumulative effect that the starting salary has. This committee is looking at the long-term impact of the pay gaps.
Another one that we're seeing come through, which is a very important one to keep an eye on, is the impact of COVID on the research trajectory of the women faculty members.
My colleague Dr. Scott Walsworth, along with other colleagues, actually looked into the impact of COVID. They found that there was evidence of a steeper perceived productivity decline for women during the pandemic, steeper than that of men.
One of the key causes there was who was being the primary carer—not necessarily the number of children, but the primary carer in the household. The research, which is very helpful for setting the scene for further studies and further monitoring of this issue, is asking us to rethink, potentially, the 10-year promotion criteria, to think again about what it takes to actually have a career as an academic, to be active within science and research and to also be involved in primary care itself. We have some examples internationally of how there is a more inclusive view that's helping with moving their performance recognition forward.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Thank you. If there are any details we can get that will help our study, that would be wonderful.
We'll go to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes, please.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I would like to continue talking about possible solutions. We have seen the overview of the situation, and the data in some studies show that there really is a problem with the wage gap.
Ms. Johnson, earlier you said that mechanisms were already in place, including federal funding for granting agencies and research chairs, to reduce the wage gap or respect pay equity.
Do you think the problems related to everything involving federal funding have been resolved? Do you think there are still disparities in the wage gap, both for research chairs and for the three granting agencies? Today, can we say that it has been resolved and move on to something else? Can we now focus on policies that directly affect universities, the Government of Quebec or those of other provinces?
President, Simon Fraser University
Thanks for that. I don't think that the problem has been solved through our Canada research chair program, because all that the program has done is ensure that we have a diversity of representation of Canada research chairs. That has not addressed the pay issue.
It's interesting. I'm sitting here racking my brain to think about what could be done federally, and one thing I will say is that universities have to apply and be recognized as an institution that can hold tri-council dollars. Usually that recognition is based on whether you have good audit functions, can manage the funds and all those kinds of things, but there are other levers that could be utilized to indicate that a university is eligible for funding from the federal government for tri-council dollars. For example, they would have certain policies and practices in place.
That has not been taken up to any great degree. Some of my presidential colleagues will hate me for suggesting this, but I do think that we do need to look at both carrots and sticks, and this would be a stick that potentially could be utilized and thought about.
Again, that's what I'm thinking through. What are the regulatory levers that can be pulled federally to help us address this issue?
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. Johnson.
Professor Airini, do you have anything to add about potential solutions that the federal government could implement to improve pay equity?
Provost and Vice-President Academic, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Thank you for your question.
I'm speaking to the three areas of investment, influence and implementation. The investment piece is exactly as President Johnson has described. It's looking for where it's possible to have leverage through government granting.
The influence piece is this report itself. It's not only to have recommendations come from it but also to ask the sector to report regularly on progress towards those recommendations, whatever they may be, that will come from this important report.
The third piece is around information.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Thank you.
I have stretched the time because that was an important chunk to get, and I appreciate that.
Now we will go to Mr. Cannings for the final two and a half minutes, please.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
I would like to follow up with Dr. Johnson on my last point. This is perhaps one step removed from the issue at hand, which is the pay gap, but it's this idea that one thing the federal government does and one thing it could do better is fund the students—the master's students, the Ph.D. students and the post-doctoral students—who are in the process of becoming researchers and working at universities that we're talking about today, and properly fund the scholarships and fellowships that have been frozen for the last 20 years.
This is the big filter, I think, that filters out women who are trying to advance their education, because they are doing the things that you have talked about, such as taking care of families. It filters out people of colour and people with low incomes.
I'm wondering if that could that have some bearing on this issue.
President, Simon Fraser University
Thank you so much for raising that point.
Graduate student support is an absolutely essential point for us here in Canada. As you have said, it has been frozen for 20 years, and I am deeply concerned about the barriers that exist for people to enter into graduate school, graduate education. They simply do not have the support. We're hearing this from our graduate students all the time, and I think, as you have said, particularly from women who might have child care responsibilities. For other groups, that funding really makes a difference.
This is something we have been asking for a long time to be addressed, and I think we do need to look at that whole pipeline, as you have said, to make sure that we have the talent coming through the system. Again, that would be an area where there could be requirements around representation, and there should be.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
If there is time, I would like Professor Airini to comment on that as well.
Provost and Vice-President Academic, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
I also appreciate your reflection in making this point. Thank you for that.
I'm thinking as I listen to this about the economic analysis I've read about the opportunity costs for those from under-represented groups to take on university studies, and succeed and how important it is that as they transition into an early researcher career path, there is actually an equity framework applied. It's not an equality framework but an equity framework. The unfreezing of the awards could certainly be, if framed correctly, an important step for ensuring that there's an equity-based launch point.