Science and Research Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you. I appreciate that, because that was my follow-up question.

I took a quick look while you were speaking—I remembered the Alberta sunshine list when it comes to public disclosure—at the University of Calgary. A lot of information is publicly available. It's not even a space where this is somehow hidden information.

If we were to give you the power to make change at the University of Calgary, or at the the University of Alberta, let's say, so that you're not implicating your own university right now, what would be the first thing you'd do?

[Malinda Smith]

That's a good question.

Just so you know, I spent over 20 years at the University of Alberta. I'm a graduate, so I love them all.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I'm also an alumnus of the U of A. You were actually teaching at the U of A when I was a student there.

[Malinda Smith]

One thing I would do is require every chair or dean to have a consultation every two to three years to review all the salaries within a unit to make sure that, when assistant professors who are coming in are getting better salaries by virtue of the negotiated agreement, there isn't an inequity for the assistant and associate professors. Those associate professors, from what they call the “sandwich” generation, are primarily women, including women who, for example, took time off to have their children. Once you do that, you are almost always already behind—and not because of your knowledge or qualifications or experience—in terms of the salary gap.

I would say that it would be a requirement to have regularized reviews of all salaries by chairs, deans and the provost, but the administrating body would be HR. I keep coming back to HR for this.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

That's wonderful. Thank you. I wish we could continue having this conversation, but I'm going to switch gears a little bit to Dr. Sukhai.

A lot of your work has focused on social inclusion and accessibility in STEM, a field in which we know that women have been traditionally left out of or not represented at the same level. Can you tell me what efforts have been made by universities to address these barriers for both women and people with disabilities, and specifically women with disabilities?

[Dr. Mahadeo Sukhai]

It's a great question.

I think the barriers that women face in participating in STEM have been better recognized, better talked about and really better.... I'm not going to say “addressed”, but they've been better called attention to over the past thirty-odd years.

Where I think we start to run into some significant absence of attention is on the experience of students with disabilities, of early-career researchers with disabilities and of women with disabilities doing STEM. I think part of the challenge ends up being this ableist perception of, “Well, you have a disability. You're not really supposed to be in science.” I've encountered it. It's real. It's there. I think there's this sense that you don't have “ability” X, so you can't really participate as a physicist. You can't really participate as a biochemist.

Then you have this conception of what a scientist should be. You also have this conception of what a productive scientist should be. That definition of productivity doesn't include parental leave. It doesn't include medical leave. It doesn't include mental health leave. It doesn't include needing assistance within the labs. You have these rather structural systemic barriers that are there around disability and that resonate for everybody with disabilities—racialized persons with disabilities, women with disabilities, indigenous scholars with disabilities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

Thank you very much as well, Mrs. Goodridge, for your questions.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you for being a sub. You're certainly welcome at this committee any time.

We have Dr. Jaczek for five minutes, please.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

We've heard from both of you on the importance of data, particularly in looking at visible minorities and indigenous persons with disabilities. I think you've made those points very clear. Of course, we have StatsCan coming soon, later during this meeting, and no doubt we will get some recommendations from them, but it strikes me that we've been talking about this issue for about 40 years now.

Dr. Smith, you made that point. I'm wondering if we're not at the point of some sort of analysis paralysis. In other words, where do we go from here? You talked a bit about accountability in terms of the universities themselves, but what can we—as the federal government in particular—do to advance the cause of these under-represented groups and essentially what pay inequity is. Could you give us some ideas on the role of the federal government?

[Malinda Smith]

Thank you.

I always go back to Justice Rosalie Silberman Abella's comment about voluntarism. Because these barriers are so self-perpetuating, to wait and hope is not going to have any impact.

We need better data. I share with Stats Canada, but if the institutions aren't collecting it and collecting it in a systematic way, we're not going to get there. We need good administrative data for each of the equity-deserving groups.

Second, we need transparency and accountability. MP Goodridge talked about transparency for data later on in the career trajectory, at the higher salary rates. Perhaps we need to see those opening salary rates. If they were transparent, maybe institutions would be less likely to have discrepancies, or we might see fewer biases emerge from the discretionary or the hidden. I think that's really important.

I think that maybe we need to restrict the other kinds of hidden salaries, whether it's market supplements or these other kinds of factors, or make them public as part of accountability. Also, there need to be consequences for people who are in these roles like mine. If we are tasked or mandated to overlook equity, what are we doing to ensure it's actually happening? I believe that there isn't a lot of accountability despite the talk, and that is a factor for us.

I personally would like to see a royal commission that looks at racialized minorities in particular—we've had gender, and we've had indigenous—because I think this is a lot of wasted talent, untapped talent, and it impacts our prosperity, it impacts productivity and it impacts our innovation. This is a huge problem for universities, but I think more broadly for our economy in Canada.

There isn't an accountability that's mandatory, with impacts, so we keep talking about it but doing nothing, really.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Dr. Sukhai, do you have any ideas for the federal government in terms of intervention? Also, since Dr. Smith has raised it, what do you think about the idea of a royal commission?

[Dr. Mahadeo Sukhai]

I love the idea of a royal commission. I would broaden the mandate to not just around racialized persons. I would include persons with disabilities.

I think you raise a very good point about analysis paralysis. I think the reason everyone harps on data is that somebody, somewhere, says that we don't have enough data, even though it's been 40 or 50 years. To some degree, do we need data? Yes, we do, but the lack of data shouldn't stop us from doing what needs to be done.

I think the federal government has levers through the tri-council. I think the federal government has levers through ISED funding for Mitacs in order to drive accessibility and inclusion in the sciences and to drive accessible inclusion for early-career researchers, both from a representation perspective and from a change to the training environment perspective, because you can't be an assistant professor with a disability if you haven't been a post-doc with a disability, a graduate student with a disability, an undergrad with a disability or a high school student with a disability.

There are many different points of failure along that career trajectory for, again, somebody like me, who was born with a disability. I think it's really important to say, “Okay, can we pull those levers?” Does it involve a royal commission? Does it involve funding? Does it involve a recognition of the training environment needing to be improved? Does it involve a recognition that representation is an issue? Does it involve a recognition that perhaps there are others elsewhere on the international stage?

I would point to some of the work that is going on in the United States, which is doing work that I think we could really learn from in this space and that would be good best practice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's terrific. Thank you very much.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Smith, the federally funded agencies have various financial support programs for research and science in Canada. There are of course practices for equity, diversity and inclusion for underrepresented groups, but what do you suggest to reduce the wage gap?

[Malinda Smith]

For early-career researchers, we have some efforts with the tri-agencies around USRAs, which are the undergraduate research stipend awards that they give for undergraduates. We also have some with post-docs. For example, I'm pleased to see that post-doctoral fellows can now at least get mat leave. They didn't in the past. More needs to be done to include racialized persons in the research programs. I know there's push-back against the Canada research chairs program and CFREF, both of which incorporate equity, diversity and inclusion.

I've researched those for 20 years, and I will say to you, one of the things that impresses me most about Canada is that we have made an effort to ensure we have equitably distributed those research chairs across equity-deserving groups. Persons with disabilities remain chronically under-represented; I should say that.

By having that diversity among research chairs, it highlights the intersection between diversity, excellence and quality that's a hallmark of the Canadian research ecosystem. I want to say that again. It's a hallmark of the Canadian research ecosystem. It's something we should be proud of—that we are trying to be as inclusive as possible compared with many other places in the world.

That said, I think those we leave out highlight why we have a gap in productivity and innovation, because there are too many racialized people who are engineers driving cabs, who are doctors as lab technicians, and who are underemployed and underskilled. They could be contributing to our research ecosystem if their credentials were recognized, which is a big issue for us, and if they were properly paid commensurate with their education. I'm sure Stats Canada will tell you the 2021 census data shows that racialized minorities are over-educated compared with the average but are still underpaid and underemployed. The big thing is—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

I'm trying to find which part of the thought we can end on. Your thoughts are all very good. I really appreciate them, but we are short on time now.

We will go to Richard Cannings for two and a half minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to turn to Dr. Sukhai with my question.

Dr. Sukhai, you mentioned data being one problem, and the consistency of data across the country and across provincial boundaries. Universities are within the provincial mandate, as my friend from the Bloc likes to point out, and that causes problems. It doesn't just cause problems in university data. It causes problems in crosswalking data across provincial boundaries for all sorts of things, whether it's natural resources, health care or education.

I'm just wondering what role the federal government could play in turning this around and in getting data that is useful across provincial boundaries. We have Statistics Canada coming up next, and maybe you could give me a good question to ask them.

[Dr. Mahadeo Sukhai]

My sense is that if you folks could find a way to mandate data standardization.... StatsCan has repositories of great, and some not so great, questions that we have had conversations about. If everybody could ask questions the same way.... In my research, I've switched to asking demographic questions the way StatsCan asks demographic questions, because I need to be able to compare my data with StatsCan's data.

If you have an engine to collect data and the tri-council is hewing to that engine, by and large, then if there was a way to enforce that level of data standardization across provinces and through the provinces down into the post-secondary system, that would be a really good thing. If you could identify a mechanism by which that was possible, and if StatsCan could identify a mechanism by which that was possible, I would be very friendly to that.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

We've had, in the last round of negotiations around health care funding, that demand, from what I understand, by the federal government on provinces, saying, “Here's some extra funding for health care if you want it, but we have to talk about data, getting data fixed across health care.” We don't have the same clout, I imagine, in university funding because of the way that is set up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

On the record, I can see the nodding of heads. We'll try to trap that in the analysts' work.

Thank you, everybody. We are at time.

Thank you to Dr. Smith and Dr. Sukhai for the terrific discussion we've had with you. Your testimonies are really going to help us with our study on the pay gap experienced by different genders and equity-seeking groups. If there is more information that you can provide us from today's discussion or things that you think of later, please send those to the clerk.

We are going to be suspending briefly now so we can get our next panel set up. For the members on Zoom, Mr. Lametti and Mrs. Goodridge, please stay in the session that you're in, and we will come back to you shortly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Welcome back.

Pursuant to standing order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, December 5, 2022, the committee resumes its study on the long-term impacts of pay gaps experienced by different genders and equity-seeking groups among faculty at Canadian universities.

Now it's my pleasure to welcome Statistics Canada. We have Vincent Dale, director general of the labour market, education and socio-economic well-being statistics. We also have Tracey Leesti, director of Canadian centre for education statistics. Both are on video conference.

Welcome to you both.

We do have some warnings about microphones, but I think that, when you have your headsets on, the microphone and the earpiece are far enough apart that the interpreters can safely do their work.

We will start with five minutes for opening remarks for one of you. Whoever is going to be doing the presentation, you have five minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Dale or Ms. Leesti.

[Vincent Dale, Director General, Labour Market, Education and Socio-Economic Wellbeing Statistics, Statistics Canada]

Good afternoon.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for the invitation to today's meeting to discuss gender pay gaps for academic staff at Canadian universities.

In 2021, among all full-time academic staff, the median salary for women was roughly $134,000, while it was $151,000 for men. That's a pay gap of 11.1%. This gap has decreased over time. In 1991, it was 20.6%.

Rank is an important factor to consider when examining the pay gap among academics. Over time, the pay gap has decreased for full professors and associate professors, while it has increased slightly among assistant professors. In 2021, among full professors, men earned 3.3% more than women, compared to 5.9% in 1991. For associate professors, the difference between men and women was 2.3%, compared to 4.8% three decades earlier. The pay gap, although smaller for assistant professors, has increased slightly over the last 30 years, from 2.2% in 1991 to 2.4% in 2021.

We also see differences in the pay gap across teaching disciplines. In 2021, for example, among full professors, women earned slightly more than men in fields such as humanities and health professions and related programs. In most other disciplines, men earned more than women. In business management and public administration, for example, the median salary of men was about $13,300, or 7% higher than that of women.

We know that the age structure of academia has an impact on the gender pay gap. Fifty years ago, only 1% of full-time academic staff were aged 65 years and over. In 2021, this figure was roughly one in 10. This reflects in part the aging of the baby boom generation, as well as the end of mandatory retirement legislation in many provinces. Men are overrepresented in the older age groups, and they are overrepresented among full professors, whose wages are generally highest. This helps explain the overall gender pay gap.

Let me turn now to some steps we're taking to understand the gender pay gap of academics more fully.

Statistics Canada collects data on academic staff through a survey called the university and college academic staff system or UCASS. This survey involves receiving and compiling information from the administrative systems of educational institutions across the country. Currently, information is collected on gender, year of birth, principal subject taught, academic rank, years at rank and salary. UCASS does not include information on racialized groups, indigenous identity or disability status, and does it not collect information on part-time academic staff.

We recognize the importance of gathering more detailed information on equity-seeking groups, as statistical findings for the total population can often hide differences in the experiences of diverse groups. To this end, Statistics Canada is currently assessing the feasibility of enhancing the information included in UCASS. This project has three components.

First, we are evaluating whether information on equity-seeking groups is already held by institutions and the extent to which these data are standardized and comparable across institutions. Secondly, we are assessing whether it would be possible to fill information gaps through the integration of UCASS data with other data already held by Statistics Canada. Third, we are considering what would be involved in Statistics Canada acquiring information on equity-seeking groups from institutions, including important privacy and confidentiality considerations.

This project will be completed in March 2024, and decisions on next steps will be taken at that point.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening statement. We would now be happy to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Terrific. Thank you very much.

Now we will go to the first round of six minutes with Mr. Tochor, please.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today.

Mr. Dale, previous witnesses noted that, although Statistics Canada tracks some information needed by researchers on the subject, it charges them for that. Are you aware of whether the amounts of monies collected from researchers, accessing these dollars, cover the cost of the actual research?