Science and Research Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[Vincent Dale]

Are you referring to the gender wage gap for the labour force as a whole?

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Yes.

[Vincent Dale]

We do have a series of research articles on that question. It changes over time, obviously. The best thing for us to do might be to answer that question in writing to make sure we give you an accurate answer.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

That would be good.

How is the data that you collect used? Is there any way you could use it to help support reaching pay equity among academic staff?

[Vincent Dale]

I would be speculating, but I'm sure it's used by administrators. I'm sure it's used by unions and professional associations. It's used, certainly, by equity-seeking groups, and federal and provincial policy-makers. I'm sure it's used in various specific ways. In a general sense, it's used by a very wide range of stakeholders.

As we've heard through our consultations and engagements with stakeholders, there's a particular interest in understanding the gender wage gap at a more granular or more disaggregated level for equity-seeking groups.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

From a Stats Canada perspective, what can the Government of Canada do to advance data collection analysis related to pay equity within universities?

[Vincent Dale]

As I've said before, we think of data as being a team sport. We are the national statistical agency. We have expertise in a great number of areas. Ultimately, our data collection efforts tend to involve co-operation with partner organizations and strong partnerships.

The role of Statistics Canada is to consult, engage and build partnerships, so that, as I've said before, we're coalescing around a coordinated data strategy to get this information that we need.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's the end of your time, unfortunately.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas has his finger up. He's also the next speaker, but I think he has something else.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

There seem to be some technical difficulties on the screen, and the people who are following us online see a blue screen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

They're working on it. We have a problem for those who are on the screen. We have a blue screen for the floor. The floor camera isn't picking us up. I think you can still hear us. We won't watch ourselves, but as long as our witnesses can hear our questions, let's go with two and a half minutes with Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, I just wanted to point out that people who are following us online, because this is a public meeting, are unable to see the video on the screen. That is the problem we are having.

So I would request that we suspend temporarily because people cannot see what is happening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Let me consult. Give me two seconds.

It isn't a televised meeting, per se, and we do have audio so people can see and hear what we're talking about. We have five minutes left in the meeting, so by the time we solve this.... I think it's more important for us to get our questions to the witnesses and their answers to us. The public will be able to pick that up in the meeting as well as in the report as we go forward.

If it's okay for you to enter into your two and a half minutes of questions, that would be great.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Okay, Mr. Chair, we will continue for the sake of the process.

Ms. Leesti, I would like to go back to the disaggregated data accomplishments report 2021‑22, which was tabled in April 2023.

In order to obtain detailed data and eliminate the systemic barriers faced by certain groups in the population, $172 million in funding was allocated over five years, and $36 million annually thereafter. That is a significant amount.

Despite this funding, various witnesses have mentioned insufficient access to data to conduct analyses, help improve pay equity and reduce the wage gap, especially among genders.

So I would like you to tell us what exactly is happening with that federal investment because right now, in 2023, it seems that we are still missing a piece of the puzzle.

[Vincent Dale]

Thank you for the question.

The disaggregated data action plan has been used—and is still being used—to fund multiple initiatives across Statistics Canada, including, for example, the labour force survey and the Canadian community health survey. It is an envelope of funding that is being used to cover a wide portfolio of projects. It has been used to fund the feasibility study I've been talking about, which is, in part, funded through the disaggregated data action plan.

There is a process within Statistics Canada to allocate that funding. Some of it is being used to assist jurisdictions in sharing administrative data. Some of that activity is leading to lessons learned and best practices, which would certainly be applicable in this case.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Dale, has the action plan been analyzed to assess its performance and to determine whether the objectives you set have been met?

[Vincent Dale]

Yes.

For this particular topic, the data does not yet exist. We are using the funding through the disaggregated data action plan to enhance the way we collect the data and work with jurisdictions and institutions to collect the data. We're not yet in a position to analyze or write a report, per se.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much.

We go now to Mr. Cannings for the final two and a half minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to stick with Mr. Dale.

You mentioned that men are overrepresented in the full professor category. Since this is a study about pay gaps, being a full prof versus an associate or assistant prof would have implications. I want to drill down and see whether you have data, perhaps, on why that overrepresentation has occurred.

Is this just a function of time? These full professors have been in positions in universities for longer. What might have caused that?

[Vincent Dale]

We haven't necessarily looked in detail at your question specifically, but the data certainly supports an analysis of, for example, tenure—how long people have been in their position. We have information on age, for example. That's what allows us to know a larger number of professors aged 65 and older—a larger proportion by far—are men.

We're able to look at patterns and trends. I can't necessarily speculate as to what's.... For example, I can't speculate as to why it was that, 20 years ago, more men were becoming full professors than women. That's reflected in the data today, but I can't speak to the causes of those hiring decisions.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Does this imply there isn't that overrepresentation in assistant and associate professors?

[Vincent Dale]

For younger groups and for assistant professors, in terms of the composition of faculty, it's true that we don't see as large a gender imbalance in terms of the proportion of academics by gender, ignoring for the moment the levels of pay.

Yes, we do see for younger generations and lower “ranks” more gender balance than for full professors.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I was just trying to get at whether this difference in full professors was as a result of earlier differences in assistant and associate professors, or whether it's something about who is chosen to become a full professor. I was trying to get at that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Be very brief.

[Vincent Dale]

I think you would want to look at what we call cohort effects. When we look at those who are 65 and older now, they were probably hired 25 or more years ago. You'd probably want to look at the cohort effects. How did those people come to be in those positions?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's great. Thank you very much.

To both witnesses, Vincent Dale and Tracey Leesti, thank you for your testimony and your answers. Sometimes there is a line between policy and the work you're doing, so thank you for keeping on the right side of all of that as well. It will really help our study that we're doing on pay gaps experienced by different genders and equity-seeking groups. If there is more information, you can always submit that to the clerk. That can be included in the analysts' work.

We'll be meeting again on Wednesday, November 1. We'll be considering draft reports for version two of support for the commercialization of IP. We're going to have version two of the Government of Canada's graduate scholarship and post-doctoral fellowship programs. We will also provide drafting instructions for the study on the long-term impacts of pay gaps experienced by different genders and equity-seeking groups among the faculty at Canadian universities.

Is it the will of the committee to adjourn? I see no one objecting.

Thank you very much for your participation. We are adjourned.