Science and Research Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[Vincent Dale]

It's beyond my scope of expertise and authority to comment on policy questions. I can speak to what works in terms of data standardization, acquiring data and the development of data, but I'm not authorized to speak about what works in terms of policy interventions.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Okay, that's fine.

I'll just finish by asking if you feel that your resources are adequate to do the task that you have been tasked to do.

[Vincent Dale]

As I said, we're in this feasibility stage. Early next year we'll make some decisions on which way we're going forward.

Depending on which way we're going, the cost implications could be quite different. I mentioned the possibility of linking to existing census data. That might be a very different proposition from a full-scale data acquisition. To give you an example, it might be the case that, to supply some variables, a large number of institutions will have to make large, significant changes to their IT systems. That could be a significant cost, depending on the way we go.

It is important that we finish our feasibility work and decide which way we are going. That will give us a sense of the cost.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much.

Now, for six minutes, we have Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Greetings to the witnesses who are joining us.

My first questions are for Ms. Leesti from Statistics Canada.

Various witnesses have suggested expanding the survey for Statistics Canada's university and college academic staff system. For instance, they suggested including information about race, gender identify, disability and indigenous status for full-time and part-time staff.

Can you tell us which reports and analyses conducted by Statistics Canada on the basis of the university and college academic staff system would be relevant for this study?

[Tracey Leesti, Director, Canadian Centre for Education Statistics, Statistics Canada]

I would first say that UCASS does provide a very rich data source on the analysis of gender pay gaps, but we do recognize that there are variables that we are missing from UCASS with respect to pay equity on racialized populations, indigenous identity and persons with disabilities, so I do believe collecting this information and having a centralized repository of this information across Canada would help in terms of furthering the analysis.

Currently there are a number of areas across Canada, be they in institutions or with funding agencies, that collect this information, but there is not one centralized repository. I do feel that having that information centralized and available would be very beneficial in furthering the studies, particularly the intersectional studies with respect to pay gaps.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Leesti.

Should the committee consider other measures as part of the survey for the university and college academic staff system, including potential changes to the survey itself, its frequency, data analysis or its management?

[Tracey Leesti]

In terms of the analysis of the data, there is quite an extensive amount that appears to be going on within other organizations.

In terms of furthering the collection of the data with respect to UCASS, as you can imagine, it's quite an extensive process to collect this information, particularly across the multiple institutions—over 100 institutions—where the data is collected. Funding moving forward will be a question with respect to the collection of the data. It's a large-scale operation, so in terms of the future of UCASS, should the pilot prove to be successful, that is one thing in terms of moving the yardsticks forward on the collection of this type of information through UCASS.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dale, do you have something to add on the last two points I raised?

[Vincent Dale]

No. I think Ms. Leesti covered it very well.

We have heard very loud and clear that this information on equity-seeking groups is a priority. That's why we are currently conducting this feasibility study. We believe there will be a very high value to enhancing the data with that additional information.

Perhaps I'll leave it there.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

As a number of my colleagues noted, various witnesses who have appeared before the committee as part of this study have indeed noted that Statistics Canada collects certain census data, but that there is a fee to access it.

What measures could the federal government take overall to improve the collection and analysis of pay equity data for universities?

[Vincent Dale]

I'll repeat some of what I said before.

There are some more advanced uses of data, which require additional physical and IT infrastructure. For that type of work, we do recover our costs, so for advanced researchers, there can be some costs associated with that.

I've forgotten—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

No problem, Mr. Dale, I have other questions. I have a lot of questions.

In its 2021 budget, the federal government earmarked $172 million over five years for the implementation of the disaggregated data action plan, whose objective was to support the efforts of the government and society to limit inequalities and include considerations relating to equity and inclusion in decision-making processes.

I would like you to explain how the disaggregated data action plan can help researchers and decision-makers reduce wage gaps in specific fields, including university faculty members.

[Vincent Dale]

I'll introduce the idea that data is a team sport. There are certain activities that StatsCan can certainly take a leadership role in doing. As we tried to outline, and when we talked about a feasibility study, it's really about building co-operation around that common data strategy. What does that mean? It means agreeing on one common approach to filling these information gaps and then committing to a coordinated effort to collect, share, compile and analyze that information. If I were to make any suggestion or recommendation, it would be to mobilize around a coherent and coordinated strategy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Great. Thank you.

Sometimes the recommendations are writing themselves, or you write them for us. I appreciate that.

We'll go over to Mr. Cannings now.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'll just continue on that line of coherent data and data that's the same across the country.

Statistics Canada is a federal agency. We have institutions like universities and colleges that collect data, and they're being overseen by provinces that perhaps are collecting data.

Can you give us an idea of the scope of that difference? Are we dealing with differences between different universities and colleges versus Statistics Canada, or do the provinces have different datasets that need to be standardized as well across provincial boundaries? How difficult is this?

[Vincent Dale]

It would be hard to summarize the difficulties in a few words.

One thing I can maybe help to clarify is that our interactions are with each individual educational institution. What is certainly part of the challenge or part of the context is provincial privacy legislation. For each institution and the applicable province, there are some challenges that should not be underestimated in terms of making sure that, depending on the way this EDI information was collected, the institution and the province have the appropriate legal authority to transfer that to Statistics Canada.

Maybe that gives you a sense of the interaction between individual institutions and provinces and the acquisition process.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

You mentioned that it would be useful for you to have that name data associated with some of the statistics you have for each position at universities and colleges, and that the name data could then link to census data.

Would it also link to CRA data? I'm just wondering about the extent of this privacy issue. Is it a social insurance number that would link all those? How would you do that?

[Vincent Dale]

It may be the case that we come to the conclusion that acquiring name information is the best way forward. We're not at that point yet. When we do make those decisions, we are always evaluating the magnitude or the urgency of the information requirement, the data needs, versus the privacy intrusion that would go along with collecting that information. We call that necessity and proportionality.

We strive for a balance so that the need to acquire the data is proportional to the privacy intrusion that's involved.

As I say, it might be that we make that determination around linking to the census, but we are looking at other options. If we do decide to go down the road of acquiring first names and last names, we would certainly do that within the framework of our legislation and our privacy and confidentiality policies.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Just to finish up on that thought, then, we've been struggling here with data on racialized people and people with disabilities. Would that name data be there in the census, or is it only there for certain people?

[Vincent Dale]

It's there for a sample of the population—for about one-fifth of a sample of the population. It would be certainly there for indigenous identity and membership in a racialized group or an employment equity group. Disability status would be a further challenge, as it's not necessarily addressed in the census.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Just to completely shift gears here and get back to your initial.... You gave some summaries of the situation from your data, and I had just a few questions there.

You said that rank was important. Could you go over that again, because it was a bit confusing for me whether the pay gap was lesser in higher ranks or whether the change in the pay gap was lesser or coming down. I was left a bit confused.

[Vincent Dale]

Sure. For both full professors and associate professors, the gender pay gap has decreased over the past 30 years. In 2021, for full professors, the gap was 3.3% and for associate professors it was 2.3%.

The situation is slightly different for assistant professors. Over time the gap has increased slightly from 2.2% in 1991 to 2.4% in 2021.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay, so the higher the rank, the higher the pay gap, but it's coming down, and for assistant professors it's lower but going up a little. Okay, I think I have that clear.

[Vincent Dale]

That's correct, except for assistant professors the gap is small but increasing.