Evidence of meeting #63 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fund.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Susan Kutz  Professor and Tier I Canada Research Chair in Arctic One Health, As an Individual
Natan Obed  President, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami
Marjolaine Tshernish  Executive director, Institut Tshakapesh
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Hilary Smyth
Georgina Lloyd  Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Marc D'Iorio  Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment
Myrle Ballard  Chief Indigenous Science Advisor, Department of the Environment
Patrice Simon  Director General, Wildlife Landscape Science, Department of the Environment
Sarah Kalhok Bourque  Director, Arctic Science Policy Integration, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

5:05 p.m.

Georgina Lloyd Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Thank you, Chair. Thank you for the invitation to be with you today and the opportunity to speak on a topic that is very meaningful.

I respectfully acknowledge that I am joining you and that we're able to have this dialogue on the unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada recognizes that indigenous-led research and indigenous knowledge are essential to inform broad-scale science and policy-making in Canada. In the department, we have demonstrated experience that integration of indigenous traditional knowledge into policy-making makes for more impactful policy, with meaningful and durable results.

Integrating indigenous knowledge is fundamental to how CIRNAC operates and how effectively the department can deliver on its mandate. Essentially, it relates to the principles of governance and processes that are built upon partnership and collaboration. When we are able to build co-development and co-management approaches into our processes, we know from experience that the results are more durable and also more likely to contribute to self-determination objectives of indigenous partners.

Across the department there are several examples of working in partnership with indigenous peoples through co-development and co-management processes to integrate traditional knowledge with scientific research. For example, the co-developed Arctic and northern policy framework is clear that Arctic and northern peoples want knowledge gaps filled, but they also want changes to the way knowledge is gathered, created and shared. As such, this framework approach to Arctic and northern research features stronger regional and indigenous involvement in the research process, including in setting priorities, in undertaking research itself and in enhanced community-based observation. The Arctic and northern policy framework is also clear that indigenous knowledge and scientific knowledge will be equally considered in decision-making.

In regard to co-management, the northern resource co-management structure intentionally integrates traditional and scientific knowledge by virtue of the regimes created by legislation. This legislation implements commitments from modern treaties that require the integration of traditional and scientific knowledge into policies, processes, and decisions or recommendations. It also establishes resource co-management boards whose membership includes representatives from regional indigenous communities that have experience in understanding, analyzing and incorporating traditional knowledge.

These are the bodies responsible for decision-making around environmental assessment and resource management across the north. Shared decision-making models and co-management arrangements provide a practical mechanism for integrating indigenous traditional knowledge into government decision-making and management processes for natural resources.

Further to the practices that we have employed in the north, CIRNAC is negotiating chapters in some British Columbia treaties that would commit federal departments to respond to requests from treaty first nations to explore a co-management and shared decision-making arrangement. This provides one potential mechanism through which indigenous knowledge can be integrated with federal decision-making processes on environmental and resource management. It is proposed that the chapter be included in a number of treaties being currently negotiated in British Columbia.

Further, we operate a program, the northern contaminants program. It is one of Canada's longest-running research programs and has some three decades of experience of bringing together western scientific methods and indigenous knowledge, perspectives and approaches to better understand and address the issue of contaminants from distant sources that make their way into northern and Arctic environments and build up in the fish, birds and wildlife that serve as important food sources for Inuit, first nations and Métis peoples.

The northern contaminants program itself generally refers to an approach as a partnership approach, by which government at federal and territorial levels, indigenous organizations and governments, academia and local communities all have a say in the research, the monitoring and the supporting outreach activities that are undertaken—how they are done, by whom, and how the results will be communicated. The program recognizes that indigenous peoples, their representative organizations, and their knowledge and input in direction are necessary at all stages of the research process.

CIRNAC will continue to work in partnership with indigenous peoples to develop new, collaborative ways to integrate indigenous traditional knowledge.

I look forward to the results of this committee's study, which will help inform those discussions into the future.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to that as well, thanks to the testimony we're getting. It will help us along that way.

Now we're going to Marc D'Iorio, please, from the Department of the Environment.

5:15 p.m.

Dr. Marc D'Iorio Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment

Thank you, Chair.

I will share my opening remarks with Dr. Myrle Ballard, who is my colleague here today.

I will start by saying that science in and of itself is the method we use to understand our physical and natural environment, through measurement, through observation and through experimentation.

In the scientific community, it has become very clear that we need to take an interdisciplinary approach, one that considers different knowledge systems, such as western science and indigenous science.

Indigenous people have been valued partners of the government in conserving and protecting our environment. This partnership also includes participation in international delegations to groups like the IPCC—the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change—and the IPBES, which is Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services. Their contribution to Canada's international work has been extremely valued and has been leading in that since.

Early last year, the department created an indigenous science division, which is indigenous-led by Dr. Ballard. It is meant to advance and consider indigenous knowledge systems at the same time as we progress in looking at western science. Our goal is to make sure that we consider all knowledge systems at the same time when we start our work.

Indigenous science brings together traditional knowledge. It brings together long-term observations of our physical and natural environment. It has a perspective of looking at cumulative impacts on ecosystems and at the multiple stressors affecting our environment. It is really a value-based approach, a holistic approach to the environment, as well as an interdisciplinary approach.

I will stop here and just state that this is a journey for us. We are committed to including indigenous science and to considering knowledge systems from the start and throughout the work we do as a department.

I will turn it over to Dr. Ballard.

5:15 p.m.

Myrle Ballard Chief Indigenous Science Advisor, Department of the Environment

Thank you.

In January 2022, Environment and Climate Change Canada created a new indigenous science division to best integrate indigenous science or traditional knowledge with western science, better known as two-eyed seeing, into government policy development.

ISD, the indigenous science division, was structured to be most effective in combining synergies between indigenous and western science. To do so, the indigenous science division developed three pillars: bridging, braiding, and weaving.

Bridging means to connect the two sciences together to foster awareness, understanding, and recognition of indigenous science as a science distinct from and equal to western science.

Braiding brings together the different ways of knowing and being by integrating the policies in indigenous science and western science that can work best.

Weaving is to ensure that both indigenous and western science are employed to complement each other for better-informed decision-making.

While we integrate the indigenous science into government policy development and develop the indigenous science lens to ECCC's science, policy and program activities, it's important to be guided by the importance of indigenous science indicators, tools, and perspectives, such as repatriation, reconciliation, renewal, respect, reciprocity, responsibility, and relationships.

Indigenous science tools must be applied to inform approaches regarding, for example, environmental issues, as well as ECCC's work on the national boreal caribou knowledge consortium, the oil sands, the shellfish of Tsleil-Waututh and the polar bear research in the Inuit Nunangat.

This must be accomplished in a manner that aligns with the approaches specified by indigenous nations, governments, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, specific communities and international instruments such as the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.

The effective use of bridging and braiding will allow indigenous science to weave indigenous science and western science into reports and publications that will be used by decision-makers, governments and other parties.

Additionally, bridging, braiding and weaving indigenous science priorities and indigenous leadership to the entire spectrum of science practice within the federal government is essential in supporting Canada's commitment to our renewed nation-to-nation relationship and reconciliation with indigenous peoples.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Thank you.

We're a bit over time, but I wanted to make sure we could get as much of your thoughts in as we could, Dr. Ballard. Thank you for doing that. If there's more, you can send the information to the clerk as well, to make sure we capture all of your thoughts.

We're going to move on to our round of questions, starting with the Conservatives and Gerald Soroka for six minutes.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming forward.

I'm not certain who to direct this to, but the recent details about the mismanagement of funds at Sustainable Development Technology Canada have raised concerns about the oversight of the government-funded green initiatives.

How does the Department of the Environment guarantee that similar mismanagement will not occur in this program, and who will oversee that from happening?

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

I have a point of order.

I'd like to know how this question is relevant, Chair, to the current study, which is on indigenous knowledge.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

We can work it into indigenous knowledge through the answers.

Mr. Soroka, go ahead.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

That's actually.... It was just before the point of order. I didn't have a chance to finish. That's exactly what I was saying, that it's part of the indigenous guidelines as well. How does this relate?

That's to the Department of the Environment. I think it's Mr. D'Iorio.

5:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

Mr. Chair, I am the ADM of science and technology. We do not run programs on clean technologies. We do, however, work very closely with many indigenous groups throughout Canada on aspects of community-based monitoring and on wildlife research in the north. There are very many examples of work we do in collaboration with our partners.

There may be other witnesses in better positions to answer questions with respect to the programs that they run and the framework that the department has with respect to corporate management.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Is all of the funding or money you get directly from the government? Are there no other opportunities to get dollars? You don't apply for any funds or anything?

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Are we having a translation problem, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas?

5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Chair, there was no interpretation, but it looks like everything is working fine now.

Thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Okay.

I'm watching the time, but I'll make allowances for the interruption there with the technical difficulty. I think we're okay to go.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Do you need me to repeat the question, or is it up to the witnesses to answer?

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

The witnesses are asking for the question again.

5:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

Yes, I'm sorry; could you repeat that?

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

I'll just repeat the question.

Do you receive money only directly from the government?

You do not apply for any other government grants or other government funding. The government is the sole source of funding for any programs or operations that you run.

5:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

With respect to science and technology, we do work with government funds. We work with academia through a number of mechanisms. We work through some programs, such as the northern contaminants program, with a number of indigenous groups. We receive funding through the oil sands monitoring program in Alberta in the joint management of the program with the Government of Alberta to monitor the entire region for air, water and wildlife.

November 6th, 2023 / 5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

I'll go on to another question, then.

On reserves, the carbon tax.... Because of the remoteness of a lot of these reserves, they don't pay personal income tax because of the exemptions, yet carbon tax is charged on a lot of products that are being brought in to the organizations or businesses that operate there. Given that there's an increase in taxes and the cost of living, how does your department justify the carbon tax in places that are quite remote, such as indigenous reserves?

5:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

Again, I would say that the carbon tax is not our area of responsibility at the science and technology branch. We work with a number of communities. We do a lot of field work, and everybody's impacted by the cost of living. We manage through our budgets and through priorities to accomplish the work we need to do.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Do you find that the budgets for science and research need to be increased because of the carbon tax? Is that an issue or not?

5:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

We do not see that, no. Where we are at is that we're focusing our research where it needs to be focused, and we are managing within the budgets that we are given, given all the externalities that impact budgets.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

You were talking a lot about how you work with indigenous knowledge, and I was having some issues determining what the difference is between using their indigenous knowledge versus just consulting with the different bands. Could you please give me a little better example of some of the differences between consultation versus indigenous knowledge?

5:25 p.m.

Chief Indigenous Science Advisor, Department of the Environment

Myrle Ballard

Indigenous knowledge is very different from consultation. Consultation is, for example, when we're talking to you regarding a specific issue. That would be consultation.

However, we go to the indigenous knowledge holders for them to share what they know about the environment, what they know about climate change and what they know about changes within species in real time. It's their knowledge that is really critical when we develop policies.

We go to them, and they tell us what's happening on the land, and this is the knowledge that we want when we start the critical work that we do.