Science and Research Committee on Nov. 6th, 2023

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay. That's what I'm saying—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you, Mr. Soroka.

That answer gives us a good perspective on exactly what we're trying to study here. Thank you for that.

Now we will go to Ms. Diab.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the departmental officials who are with us today.

It's the first day of our study on indigenous traditional knowledge and science in government policy development. We were hoping to get into it an hour earlier. Unfortunately, that was not the case.

This is the only committee that's looking into how indigenous traditional knowledge would help us in what we're studying. Let me ask this question: How can we integrate indigenous knowledge to fight climate change?

Mr. Chair, I am going to share my time with Mr. Turnbull, because there wasn't much we could do here this afternoon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Is that your question?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

That's my question.

Whichever department would like to answer that, feel free.

[Dr. Marc D'Iorio]

Again, the framework developed in the department by Dr. Ballard is one of understanding that we're starting at different places when it comes to knowledge and when it comes to science. It is one of first bridging, in a first step, and then braiding and then weaving knowledge systems together. We don't often speak of integration of knowledge per se, but we do talk about this systematic approach of going through things.

With respect to climate change, there have been many perspectives. We are working, for example, with the Inuit Circumpolar Council on some of the international work that's taking place on the fact that the Arctic is warming three times as fast as the rest of the world. They are sharing their perspective.

It's very true on the wildlife side. My colleague Patrice Simon leads the wildlife research into polar bears and caribou. Perhaps I'll ask him to say a bit more on this.

[Patrice Simon, Director General, Wildlife Landscape Science, Department of the Environment]

Thank you, Chair.

I would say that using traditional knowledge and western science enables us to provide more comprehensive science advice and information on topics. We would use the perspective of western science along with knowledge gathered through and with indigenous communities so that people who make policy and make decisions consider that knowledge as they implement the decisions they have to make.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

Dr. Ballard and all the witnesses, thank you for being here. This is really important work.

I had some first-hand experience in and around the oil sands area and working with the first nations there—the Mikisew Cree, the Athabasca Cree first nation and Métis Local 125. They were doing environmental monitoring on the water and on the land with indigenous community members. The elders were passing along some of the traditions and knowledge they had accumulated.

From talking with them, I can imagine and understand that it must be challenging to keep that traditional knowledge alive. I also bore first-hand witness to just how much it can really enhance our understanding, which I think is a bit limited with western science, although western science has been a dominant paradigm.

Dr. Ballard, it seems to me that indigenous traditional knowledge can really enhance our understanding of what has an impact on the environment. Could you maybe speak to some examples and talk about how that's being integrated across different programs within ECCC?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We have about two minutes. If we could think of the main points, that would be great.

[Myrle Ballard]

Okay, I'll make it fast.

We just completed a workshop a couple of weeks ago regarding weather predictions. We held a scoping workshop within the department. We gathered indigenous knowledge-holders regarding their knowledge and what they can share with us regarding weather. This was a very good workshop. This is an example of how the department and knowledge-holders can collaborate to make better-informed decisions. We gathered a lot of information on weather and weather patterns and weather predictions.

I'll give you an example. When a certain species of animal behaves a certain way, they give an indication of weather patterns and what the weather is going to be in springtime. From there, we can determine whether or not there's going to be a drought, whether or not there's going to be flooding. Using these indicators, we can start developing better response mechanisms in order to deal with flooding as a result of climate change, because of the indigenous people's knowledge of an animal species and the land. They work together. We can share this information with the rest of Canada in better ways to develop better policies to do predictions.

Another one that's really important is the use of indigenous language. It is so critical because of the work I'm doing with the universities. I'm using Anishinaabemowin, which is my language, my mother tongue, to understand the names of places and spaces.

For example, you probably know what “Saskatchewan” means. “Saskatchewan” means in my language “where the water runs dry” or “where the water evaporates”. When you start to develop the indicators from why the province was named as such before there were borders, you will start to understand the indicators over time and from then to the present what happened, and you can start developing the indicators. This is indigenous knowledge and the indigenous science we see when the names of places and spaces across Canada....

The name of Canada is also an indigenous name. Where we're situated is an indigenous name. To understand these names and the work we do, they're all critical. I know that's kind of an aside I'm going off on, but they need to work together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

The committee structure is very difficult for a subject like this.

We will go to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes, please.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair

I welcome the witnesses joining us today for this important study. My first questions will be for the chief Indigenous science adviser, Dr. Ballard.

Dr. Ballard, thank you for joining us today.

I know that some people might mistrust Indigenous knowledge since it's not always scientifically verified. However, I'm open-minded and I'm pleased that we're conducting this important study today in an attempt to demystify a number of things.

I'd like you to comment on information released by the Quebec government, in particular by Patrick Beauchesne when he was deputy minister of the environment and the fight against climate change. He had sent a missive to the federal government regarding Bill C‑69, which sought to replace the National Energy Board Act with the Canadian Energy Board Act, among other things.

Mr. Beauchesne wrote that systematically placing Indigenous knowledge on equal footing with scientific data could prove problematic where Indigenous knowledge and science were found to be in contradiction.

If Indigenous knowledge contradicts science, how will it be possible to work around that and make decisions?

[Dr. Marc D'Iorio]

If I may, I can partially respond to that.

At the last meeting, I believe a witness said that it's very common to have differences of opinion in the scientific community. In fact, it's part of the scientific method, which is to debate the merits of our opinions. It's no different when it comes to Indigenous knowledge and science, and it's no different when it comes to Indigenous science and Western science. I think that's part of the process.

Again, this is an avenue that the department began exploring by establishing the Indigenous Science Division. We have a way to go yet. In a very broad sense, it's part of the scientific method, which is to gather various points of view and base oneself on the data to come to a consensus or develop different models.

[Myrle Ballard]

One of the ways to resolve conflict is to create an understanding of both indigenous and western science to understand where indigenous science is and the knowledge behind it.

Western science is a domineering science. The previous speakers talked to the colonization. I'm talking to the indigenous knowledge and indigenous science that we had that was also colonized. Bringing that awareness and why that happened to the forefront is really critical in alleviating the conflict.

What we have to do is understand why that happened and bring it to the forefront to understand that both sciences are really important. Indigenous and western science are both sciences. It's just that western science is used more in labs and experiments, etc., but indigenous science is like that too, when we go to the land for the experiments that we do.

For example, when we develop traditional medicines, we have the traditionalists, the medicine-makers who take the medicines from the land. They know they have to take the plant or whatever it is they're using from as far away from human contamination as they can. They have recipes that they use as well. That's the same as in a lab. There are recipes that have to be tested. There's the colour and the consistency. That's the same as western science.

Once you start to understand these and that the conflict can be resolved with the knowledge of the species.... Indigenous peoples are the ones who know what's happening on the land. Building that relationship between western and indigenous science is really critical.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you for those clarifications.

Can you clearly explain the mechanism that will lead to decision-making when the data, the knowledge are in contradiction?

How do you go about making a decision in situations like that and influencing public policy?

[Dr. Marc D'Iorio]

The first thing we try to do is come up with our methods and approaches in tandem. Doing so often helps us get ahead of the problems we're likely to run into later.

It's important to understand that the Science and Technology Branch plays a scientific advisory role. Our direct product will often be to publish something in a journal or on various media. At the end of the day, what we're trying to do is translate scientific publishing into scientific advice and contribute to the development of policy, regulations or action within the department or government. That's kind of how we're trying to approach the problem we're facing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Okay. Thank you.

We'll go now to Mr. Cannings. Go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you for being here today.

This is something that I used to work with many years ago. Twenty to 25 years ago, I was an ecologist trying to develop regional ecosystem recovery plans. I also worked on the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada for 10 years, at the beginning of the time when indigenous knowledge was being considered. It was an awkward time, because we didn't know how to work together. That was one of the reasons I wanted to bring this study together: to find out what we have learned in those 20 years about bridging these.

I would like to start with you, Dr. Ballard. You mentioned this idea of bridging, braiding and weaving. For instance, when I was doing ecosystem recovery plans, we would have digital maps. The western scientists would put layer upon layer upon layer of things they knew, but it was difficult to layer on indigenous knowledge. It just didn't seem to work in the same way.

I'm just wondering, as an example, how that bridging, braiding and weaving process would work in a broad study like that.

[Myrle Ballard]

I'll give an example of the work that we did regarding clam gardens on the west coast. This is a really good example of the bridging, braiding and weaving.

The bridging happened when we asked the people of the Wei Wai Kum Nation about their knowledge of the ancient clam gardens that have been in existence for thousands of years. That's the bridging part. They shared with us their knowledge of the ancient technology, the science and engineering technology that was invented by the indigenous people on clam gardens.

The braiding happened when they started to share the knowledge with us about the clam gardens. When we went to them, they gave us a lot of information, more than what we asked for. For example, they gave us information regarding the food they ate back then—the food systems they had in place. They shared with us the technology they used to build the clam gardens. They shared with us the importance of the clam gardens within their little ecosystems and which other species lived within the clam gardens beside the clams. That was the braiding. From there, we started to braid these. We started to braid, for example, food and the technology that they used in the ecosystems.

Then from there we are developing a video as well, which is going to be shown within our department and across the department. It's going to be shared with the community as well. That is weaving—weaving the knowledge of these systems, the knowledge of the clam gardens and western science. We'll be developing reports as well as publications.

That's an example of how knowledge is being bridged, braided and woven.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

Ms. Bourque, do you have similar examples that you deal with on science policy integration? I'm just wondering if there are examples like that in the north that you can speak to.

[Sarah Kalhok Bourque, Director, Arctic Science Policy Integration, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs]

Yes, thank you.

There are a lot of examples from the north of knowledge systems coming together. It's not necessarily one system being integrated into another, but as my colleague says, it's braided or woven. They complement each other and lead to an overall more robust understanding of the situation, of an issue.

I'm most familiar with work on contaminants through the northern contaminants program. Bringing indigenous knowledge-holders together with scientists leads to better science, to better questions that are asked. It's more informative for policy and it gives a much more thorough understanding. If we sent only scientists to look at contaminant levels in a particular food source, wanting to know how it affects health, then they'd need to know what parts of the animal are consumed, at what frequency and in what seasons. All of these affect the contaminant levels.

Indigenous knowledge might not give you the micrograms per gram of contaminant levels, but it will tell you really important information that's going to inform health risk advisories, for example. It's by working together from the earliest stages, shaping the research questions together, and finding the areas of common interest and concern that lead to a thorough understanding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you for getting that in.

Looking at the clock, I see that it would be hard to do another round of questions, unfortunately, with the interruptions that we've had.

I'm going to thank the witnesses for being here.

Maxime, you have your hand up.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would ask my colleagues to grant me 37 seconds to announce a nice surprise to end the meeting.

If my colleagues have no objection, I'd like to introduce a notice of motion for the committee's next study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I see the committee saying yes. It's at the will of the committee, so sure.