Science and Research Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2023

[Shawn Tupper]

I'm saying that we are developing advice and have given advice to the government, and the government will release that list when it's prepared to do so.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

The problem is that the government didn't act on the list you provided, and now we have another submission of different funding applications that have been approved this fall. Do you not see the problem here? You've briefed the government on this list and they're not acting.

Why wouldn't we just...? If it's that difficult to make a full list, we could start with a partial list. Why wouldn't Huawei be number one on that list and be banned from receiving an additional nickel from the taxpayers of this country?

[Shawn Tupper]

I won't comment right now on who or what companies are or will not be on that list. I do think it's important to remember that we are a country of laws, and Huawei exists in Canada in a legal way, so we can't completely ban the activities of Huawei as long as it exists within Canadian law.

We do need to pay attention to your earlier point about whether taxpayer funding and money goes towards organizations that may or may not be on that list. I think that is what the government is grappling with right now. It's trying to find ways it can construct that list in respect of who operates in this country, in respect of—

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thanks for that.

I'm going to pass my time over to my colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have about one minute and 20 seconds.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you.

Considering the leaks from within CSIS about Beijing's interference in Canadian elections, how do you reconcile this information with Minister Champagne's claims that there is a great dialogue with Canadian security departments?

Wouldn't the leaks actually suggest a significant communications breakdown with the government, rather than great dialogue?

[David Vigneault]

For the record, Mr. Chair, if you allow me, I want to be clear that there has been information unauthorizedly released from CSIS documents; I don't think it has ever been concluded that is was a leak from CSIS. I wanted to make that distinction.

In our system, the way it should work is that the intelligence service is the right entity to be providing that information to the government in terms of what we see, what the concerns are, and so on. Public Safety Canada and other departments are also providing advice to the government on what needs to be done.

That is how we're looking at that—

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I need to interrupt you. Sorry.

You're saying that the leak never came from CSIS. Are you saying the leak came from the government?

[David Vigneault]

Again, to be very clear, it was not determined that the leaks were coming from CSIS. I think I will leave it at that.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Then it did come from government.

[David Vigneault]

The record—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

Next we have Ms. Jaczek for the last five minutes, please.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you so much to all the witnesses for coming today and enlightening us.

One of the things that Minister Champagne told us was that the list is being prepared with the other Five Eyes countries. When the list is fully developed, will it be shared with the other Five Eyes countries? Is there any possibility that the Five Eyes will use the same list?

[Shawn Tupper]

I think countries will make choices for themselves, depending on who is active in those countries and the kinds of things they feel they need to protect. Canada will make its own choices based on our ecosystem.

Certainly, that information is shared. As I said earlier, we try to learn best practices from one another in that respect.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

How often will the list be looked at again? Monsieur Vigneault has said that the situation is constantly evolving. Will there be a time frame for review?

[Shawn Tupper]

With that respect, the list will remain evergreen. We will be constantly looking at entities that are operating in our environment and looking at the technologies that come to the fore. We will keep that list evergreen.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Perhaps for reassurance, I assume that the list is focusing not only on China but that it is in fact country-agnostic.

[Shawn Tupper]

That is correct.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you.

In terms of your outreach to industry and the private sector, Monsieur Vigneault, you did allude, as did Ms. Giles, to a lot of consultation around some of the emerging potential threats. You've mentioned vaccines.

Clearly, I'm very interested in the health side of things. Are you looking at previous investments in research in Canada by these industries, or are you casting a wider net to brief the private sector?

[David Vigneault]

The way we look at it is twofold.

First it will be from an assessment point of view: We will look at the past behaviour of different actors and determine how they would adapt their tactics, given the intent that they have. We would then be able to zero in on the types of companies or research sectors that may be at risk. That is one approach. We would be using the information we already have.

The other one, of course, is through our own investigation and through partnerships with our international partners. I can tell you that all of the discussions that I have with the.... At CSIS, we have official relationships with over 300 different organizations and intelligence services around the world. A lot of these discussions revolve around exchanging information to better understand the specific threat vectors, so we use both the analysis of previous information plus new information we collect in Canada ourselves or from abroad, as well as information from international partners.

That's what builds the environment that gives the opportunity for our great analysts at CSIS to work with all of our partners to then determine the right places and the right actors to provide the most impact in our engagement to mitigate that threat.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Once the list has been established, will there be any thought to look back retrospectively, supposing there is a specific institution that is on the list? Is there any thought to look retrospectively at previous or ongoing research to assess whether there is a potential threat from that ongoing research?

[Shawn Tupper]

We are conscious that the playing field is going to change all the time, so we need to be looking not just forward but also at what's going on now to make sure we fully assess the threats to Canada that may exist.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I think that's a very important point, actually. We've been hearing about applications to the alliance granting agencies, etc., but surely there is a risk from something currently in process.

[Shawn Tupper]

It could be a risk from something that is ongoing, yes.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you very much.

How much time do I have?