Science and Research Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Swami.

In short, from your perspective or in your career, you have never seen contradictions between western science and indigenous knowledge.

Is that correct?

[Laurie Swami]

From my perspective, there are from time to time contradictions, but I think what has really helped is building those trusting relationships and taking the time to work in both systems for understanding on both sides. When you take that time and you really delve into the depth of the knowledge systems, you can see how they work together and how they are complementary.

I will give you an example. When we were selecting the area for investigation for a deep geological repository in northwestern Ontario, we had to do scientific studies. We had our staff walk the land, and our western scientists walked the land, but we had indigenous people with us. Both systems came together.

One would think that maybe they were contradictory, but they actually helped us to make a better decision at the end of the day. We could respect the cultural use of the land and we could find a place where western science came together. We had a much better decision at the end of the day, because those two systems, while they weren't perfectly aligned, worked together and found the optimum way of implementing our project.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

I will now turn to Ms. Cropp.

Ms. Cropp, I'd like to ask you the same questions I asked Ms. Swami.

Have you ever faced contradictions between western science and indigenous knowledge? How were you able to make those comparisons?

What should be prioritized in public policy, in particular, in federal government policy?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have about 20 seconds.

[Alexandra Cropp]

Thank you.

Just to further echo Ms. Swami's comments, I think when you look at both systems, you want to look at them working together. It's a concern if we're just assuming that both would be contradictory. What I've experienced in a lot of my time, not only when I look at a capital build similar to what Ms. Swami mentioned, is that we're able to work with western engineers and scientists when we're doing our geographic, topographic and environmental site assessments by having our elders and leaders within the community physically walk alongside each other and ensuring that they're able to speak to their understanding of the space.

While a lot of the time in our indigenous ways of being we—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry, but I have to cut you off. You're about 20 seconds over. I did want to get that bridge to the indigenous in part of your answer.

When I do cut you off, you can give it to us in writing afterward. If more comes to you later, that would help as well.

Mr. Cannings, you have six minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to all for being here with us. It's hard to know where to start, in many cases, with this testimony that we're hearing today, but I'll start with Mr. Mays.

You talked about the importance of land and culture and how that meshes with indigenous knowledge. We're studying here how indigenous knowledge and science can mesh. You have been working in a part of the world, in Ecuador and Peru, that's one of the richest places in the world as far as indigenous culture and nature and biodiversity are concerned. There people are trying to merge indigenous cultures, and not just in science but also in law, giving nature certain rights under the law—through Pachamama in Ecuador's case, I think.

I'm wondering if you could maybe tell us how that is going and how indigenous knowledge comes into that legal system. How is it used in decisions there, if there are any cases?

[Joseph Mays]

Thank you.

I think this also touches on some of the previous questions. The rights of nature.... On the face of it, it seems to contradict western science to afford the rights of a person to something that we don't consider to have personhood, but if we look at the data, we can find examples of this resulting in more effective protection of a natural area.

One of our partners, the A'i Cofán in Ecuador, were using both systems in their recent project to map their territories. They used GIS technology to map their indigenous territory, which has been encompassed by a national park. They showed over the years that deforestation and encroachment by miners, poachers and loggers has continued throughout the park—except within the boundaries of their territory, where they monitor their land according to their own methods, which are based in their belief system. They were able to use this data and these maps in Quito in court to prove their case for more tenure over their land and for stronger protections for their resources and territory. This is just one example. I think you can find similar examples in other countries around the world.

For me, the biggest difference between the western approach and one that's often found in different indigenous communities is just the individual and reductionist point of view versus the community and the social point of view. This is also relevant to the use of psilocybin or psychedelic-assisted therapy in medicine. The western model is based on individual healing, versus social and community models. The idea is that we're part of a community that isn't just other human beings but also non-human beings, which would include the land and the different components of the land and other beings that we share the land with.

This holistic perspective actually has a better yield, and you'll find it reflected just by looking at environmental metrics like carbon storage or species richness. Certain things that are contradictory just on the face of it are actually not. The word for plant spirit, for example, in the Shuar language in Ecuador, actually can also be translated as the pith or the heartwood. It's the innermost part of a plant. There are many examples like this.

There's even the idea that there's an intelligence at the level of the resource that we're depending on. In therapy there's a new phenomenon called the “inner healing intelligence”. It's empirical and being used in MDMA-based and psilocybin-assisted therapies. On the surface it seems contradictory with western science, but as we learn more and more, we find that it's actually less contradictory than it seems. I think that also goes for environmental management and land management. There are many other examples.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I have one minute left.

I'd just like to turn this over to Ms. Cropp to comment on that, and also on this point that connections to the land, language and culture are at the base of holding that knowledge and how we can use that in our decisions.

[Alexandra Cropp]

I think there's definitely a way to move forward in that approach. Once again, it's just walking alongside each other and ensuring that not only are we being respectful but that we're also listening to our indigenous partners when they speak exactly to this, when they speak to the science that they've known that's been passed down from generation to generation. It's ensuring an understanding of the importance of our language. It's ensuring that all of these factors come into play, including when we're looking at incorporating this indigenous knowledge and science within policy development.

I think the biggest thing, of course, is just once again respecting this by ensuring that they're at the table. Otherwise, I think there's no way to move forward. You're not going to please everyone, but I think the first step is just ensuring that you're finding an approach that includes these ways of being and knowledge. From there, it's building on it. Ultimately, if we don't incorporate it, then it won't end up being included within new policies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's great. Thank you.

Looking at the clock on the wall, I think we can do some shortened rounds here. We have three minutes for the Conservatives and the Liberals and then one and a half minutes for the Bloc and the NDP. We should be able to get close to being on time.

We'll start off with three minutes to Mr. Lobb.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thanks very much.

Thank you to all of the witnesses who are here today.

My question is for Laurie Swami.

Welcome.

First I'll say that I think the NWMO has probably set the bar high for any Canadian entity in consulting with indigenous Canadians. I think that's a fact.

My question to you is specifically on the integration of indigenous traditional knowledge. How important is it to the average everyday citizen who is living on the Saugeen Ojibway Nation, the SON? What is is the importance to that individual?

[Laurie Swami]

From the NWMO's perspective, our engagement program with indigenous communities is quite critical to the success of our work. Without their indigenous knowledge coming to bear on the project, we would not be successful. We recognized that from the get-go. We've always felt that way as we've implemented our work.

As for individuals within any community—like Saugeen First Nation, since we're working in the South Bruce area, their traditional territory—it's very important for them to feel and understand how we've incorporated that knowledge.

As I mentioned, in the north, we had cultural monitors. We also had them when we were borehole-drilling in southern Ontario. Saugeen Ojibway Nation members came to our site and were there with us to monitor our activities and advise us on things we needed to do, which was very important to us. As I've already talked about, the importance of water to the SON is quite critical. We recognize that and have been working very hard to understand their ways of thinking about that, in order to make sure we're addressing them in the work as we go forward.

It's very important that they can see this—that they can see themselves in the work we do, and that it's not just the NWMO's project. We implement this in partnership with the communities we work with, whether that's Saugeen Ojibway Nation or the Wabigoon Lake Ojibway Nation in the north. With either one, we want to be in partnership and have that input from the first nation, because we think we're better off having received that information.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

A year and a half ago, there was a water walk done on the proposed site. Could you briefly say what impact that had on the SON community?

[Laurie Swami]

The water walk is a very important part of the work we do to recognize concerns among community members, make sure their voices are heard and make sure they feel their concerns are considered in the work we do. The water walk is one way for us to communicate with all of the community members in the area, and with the Municipality of South Bruce as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

I visited the Saugeen Ojibway Nation as well as the Chippewas of Nawash. I saw that great work going on with indigenous partnership.

We will go to Ms. Bradford for three minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses today for their fascinating testimony.

Ms. Swami, I also had the privilege of touring the Bruce nuclear plant. It's very impressive, as is the temporary long-term storage facility. Do you manage where the waste is stored now, while it's waiting to be permanently stored underground?

[Laurie Swami]

I'm not responsible for that. Ontario Power Generation manages the interim storage program, but we work together to make sure we understand what they're doing and they understand what we're doing.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Right—it's obviously a very critical decision. The whole community is involved in that process, which is good.

Did the Nuclear Waste Management Organization make any changes to its plan for the long-term management of used nuclear fuel because of the knowledge acquired through indigenous partners and engagement?

[Laurie Swami]

There are several things we've taken into consideration.

As we work through our indigenous knowledge policy, one of the key considerations is this: We will make decisions with indigenous input. I already talked about how we selected the area in the northwest. That was very much a collaborative approach with the indigenous community, as well as the western science work. That's how we selected that particular area. I talked about water, which is an incredibly important concept for us. We've worked hard to make sure we're modifying our program to address any concerns the indigenous people in the area would have. It's fundamental.

As we move through each one of our stages, all our decisions are made with that consideration in mind. While it hasn't changed overall the use of a deep geological repository, it's certainly on every step along the path. We are taking into consideration indigenous knowledge and viewpoints so we can make the best decision on this project going forward.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I know that because of the CANDU reactor process, we are able to make medical isotopes up at Bruce. There is indigenous involvement in that from the commercialization.

Will there be any economic opportunities for first nations communities to participate in the long-term storage process, since it's going to be on land they're involved with, as well?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Answer very briefly, please.

[Laurie Swami]

Okay.

Absolutely we will be working in partnership. We will have agreements with the first nations to make sure there is equitable proportion of the projects.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you very much.

That's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Great. Thank you.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, you have one and a half minutes, please.