Science and Research Committee on Feb. 6th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Welcome to meeting number 71 of the Standing Committee on Science and Research.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are therefore attending in person in the room and also remotely using the Zoom application. We also have witnesses here virtually.

For those participating virtually, we have a few rules.

You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we'll ensure that interpretation is properly restored before we resume proceedings.

For members in person, proceed as you normally would when the whole committee is here. I'll recognize you by name before you speak. Also, keep your earpiece away from your microphone so that we don't have feedback events for the interpreters. We want to keep our interpreters safe throughout the meeting.

All comments come through the chair, please.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 18, 2023, the committee is resuming its study on the integration of indigenous traditional knowledge and science in government policy development.

It's my pleasure to welcome Dr. Erika Dyck, professor of history and tier 1 Canada research chair in the history of health and social justice; Lindsay Heller, indigenous fellow from Simon Fraser University, Morris J. Wosk Centre for Dialogue, by video conference; and Dr. Monnica Williams, Canada research chair and professor at the University of Ottawa.

Each individual has five minutes for opening comments, after which we will go to our rounds of questioning. I'll signal you when we're getting close to time.

To start us off, we'll have Dr. Erika Dyck for five minutes.

Dr. Dyck, you have the floor.

[Dr. Erika Dyck, Professor of History and Tier 1 Canada Research Chair in History of Health and Social Justice, As an Individual]

Thank you very much.

Dear honourable members, my name, as mentioned, is Erika Dyck. I am a historian and a Canada research chair in the history of health and social justice at the University of Saskatchewan. I have been studying the history of psychedelics for over 20 years. My research has been published in a number of scholarly books, articles, documentaries and podcasts.

Initially, my research focused on medical experiments that were conducted in Canada in the 1950s and 1960s using substances like D-lysergic acid diethylamide, or LSD; mescaline, from the peyote cactus; and psilocybin, which is found in magic mushrooms. This research includes the studies conducted in Saskatchewan that coined the term “psychedelic” in 1957.

By the 1970s and 1980s, psychedelic drugs had earned a reputation as dangerous substances, with links to a history of mind control, violent behaviour and unwanted side effects like flashbacks. Canada, like most western nations, signed a UN convention in 1971 agreeing to ban the use of psychedelics in human research due to concerns about their capacity to cause addiction and stimulate unwanted behaviours. The only exception to this designation was indigenous uses for ceremonial or religious purposes.

The relationship between indigenous uses of psychedelics in Canadian history is particularly complicated. While there are a handful of registered religious exemptions stemming as far back as the 1950s, much of this history is not well understood and not well documented. For much of Canadian history, indigenous traditions were under threat, and some were expressly prohibited by the Indian Act.

While the word “psychedelic” was not coined until 1957, the concept of altering one’s state of consciousness, of course, is not unique to psychedelics. However, due to colonial pressures to adopt western medicine and laws prohibiting indigenous spiritual traditions, our documented understanding of indigenous customs with psychedelic practices or principles is severely limited.

The clearest evidence comes from the Native American Church, which has been a registered religious organization since the late 1950s. There has historically been one legal chapter in Canada and several legal chapters in the United States and Mexico. The Native American Church includes many sacred features, including the use of the peyote cactus, which contains a psychoactive alkaloid called mescaline. Mescaline was first identified by German chemists in 1896, but the practice of peyotism stretches back hundreds of years.

Most written accounts of peyotism, or the worship of peyote, came from the church as it sought legal recognition in the early part of the 20th century. That formal recognition represented a syncretic religion, with a blending of Christian and indigenous practices of worship, including the medicine or sacrament of the peyote cactus. The peyote cactus does not naturally grow in Canada. It grows in parts of Texas and northern Mexico. Anthropologists have tracked peyote pilgrimages and kinship ties to that region for centuries, further suggesting that practices long predate the formal documented recognition.

There are several historical reasons why we lack information about indigenous practices with psychedelics.

First, the practices were prohibited, stigmatized or explicitly illegal, meaning that without oral testimonies or direct information, we lack documented detail about these practices that sometimes occurred in secret.

Second, ethnobotanists and anthropologists working with indigenous communities across Canada have suggested that many ceremonies, practices and traditions do not single out a psychedelic feature. By that, I mean there are diverse practices or traditions that involve different components, which might include fasting, dancing, singing and praying. These are features that can produce alterations in consciousness. Fixating on the inclusion or exclusion of a psychedelic plant or fungi has distorted our western understanding of how these traditions use sacred plants in combination with other observances.

Finally, even academic researchers who studied these indigenous traditions in the 1940s through to the 1970s were subjected to the stigma associated with psychedelics. Some now suggest there has been a mycophobic bias in the literature, suggesting that these studies were not taken seriously or published at all.

Historically, Canadian medical researchers played a leading role in developing therapeutic applications for psychedelics. In my opinion, the best examples of effective treatments from the 1950s and 1960s came from researchers who genuinely engaged with indigenous leaders and who paid close attention to how ceremonies were structured. Collaboration between the Native American Church and psychedelic researchers in Saskatchewan, for example, led to the development of some of the first published protocols on the safe use of psychedelics in group therapy. Native American Church leaders were crucial in informing non-indigenous researchers how to prepare for an experience. In return, non-indigenous researchers testified at committees like this one about the cultural significance of the peyote ceremony.

Thank you very much for the time to speak on this important issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much for your testimony. It's right on time.

We'll now go to Lindsay Heller for five minutes.

[Lindsay Heller, Indigenous Fellow, Simon Fraser University, Morris J. Wosk Centre for Dialogue, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for this opportunity to share some important observations I have made over the years through my experience weaving indigenous knowledge and science with western science.

My name is Lindsay Heller and my Cree name is Nikamowin Maskiki. I'm a member of the Michel First Nation in Treaty No. 6 territory. I spent 10 years as a pharmaceutical research scientist at the Centre for Drug Research and Development. I'm now in my fourth year as a fellow at SFU's Centre for Dialogue, where my focus is on weaving indigenous science and western science in both of these educational settings and informing policy for a variety of levels of government.

The many wise witnesses who have come before me have spoken about the importance of establishing respectful and reciprocal relationships with indigenous knowledge-keepers when collaborating on projects and policies that involve weaving indigenous knowledge with western science. I agree that this is a critical first step. Doing your homework is as well. Prior to reaching out to indigenous knowledge-keepers, learn what has already been done, where there have been errors and issues and what the community is facing, which may come into play when attempting to collaborate and weave indigenous knowledge and western science.

As somebody who worked for many years in a lab focused on a western science approach, I want to take the little time I have today to ensure you understand that the often-perceived hierarchy of western science over indigenous science is not correct. This assumption often leads to errors, risks, repeating of harms and the failures of projects and policies that attempt to weave indigenous science and western science together.

I have often heard western scientists and government officials justify their belief in the supremacy of western science based on the value of the scientific method. They infer that indigenous people do not utilize the scientific method, which they consider the pinnacle of western thought. The scientific method follows a fairly linear path: observation, formulating a question, hypothesis, experimentation, analysis, conclusion, peer review and results sharing. Western scientific experiments follow this formula and results are published in scientific journals. This publication of results establishes a hierarchy where published scientific data is best and anything else is inferior.

I always counter this argument by stating that indigenous people, too, follow a scientific method. The consequences of failure go far beyond a failed experiment or exclusion from a journal. Experimentation by indigenous people is built on observations and interpretations of the natural world, which allow us to predict how parts of the world work. These experiments are repeatable and reliable, have rigour, are accurate and follow a peer-review process. If indigenous people didn't have a sound and reliable scientific method, the results could be much more devastating than one typically imagines.

If our observations about the sea ice in the north or our predictions, experimentation, data collection, peer review and results sharing are incorrect, it can mean falling through the ice and perishing. If our observations and results are incorrect with regard to traditional plant medicines, it could mean poisoning our families and not passing on our genes to the next generation. If our observations and results sharing about the movement and distribution of a caribou herd are incorrect, it could mean our community has no meat for the winter. While this kind of experimentation may take more time than it would in a laboratory setting, the rigour, accuracy and replicability are sound. Is this not also the scientific method? When the consequence of not using this indigenous scientific method could be death, would you not rely on this data and view it as valuable, intelligent and reliable?

I share these observations so that when governments establish programs and policies to work with indigenous knowledge-keepers to weave indigenous knowledge and western science together, they do so from a place of respect and understand that our methods are sound and deserve careful consideration and inclusion. Whether you're looking at the Species at Risk Act or creating policies that involve curriculum development or any number of programs that would benefit from the inclusion of indigenous knowledge, it is critical to do so from a place of respect, without an assumption that the western scientific way is more important or trustworthy.

You must consider reciprocity. What is the community or individual gaining from collaborating with you? You need a deep knowledge of what that community is facing. Do they have clean drinking water and adequate housing? If they don't, perhaps their priority isn't the same as yours.

You must also understand that there may be an inherent distrust of government due to decades of theft, disenfranchisement, violence and broken promises. The process of healing and reconciliation must be at the forefront of these kinds of projects and policies. After all, it isn't an indigenous world view that has gotten our world into this mess of climate change, mass extinction, resource extraction disasters and food insecurity. It is a western world view that did this. By working together and weaving our indigenous knowledge systems, approaches and values together, I believe we stand a chance of getting ourselves out of this mess.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's terrific. Thank you very much for your comments and your presentation. I look forward to the questions on this.

Now we'll go to Dr. Monnica Williams from the University of Ottawa for five minutes.

[Monnica Williams, Canada Research Chair, and professor at the University of Ottawa, As an Individual]

Thank you for having me here.

My name is Dr. Monnica Williams. I am an African American and permanent resident of Canada. I'm a board-certified and licensed clinical psychologist and tenured professor at the University of Ottawa in the School of Psychology, where I serve as a tier 2 Canada research chair in mental health disparities. I graduated from MIT and received my doctorate at the University of Virginia.

My research focus is culture, racism and mental health. I have founded mental health clinics in Virginia, Pennsylvania, Connecticut and Ottawa and a refugee clinic in Kentucky. I provide supervision and training for mental health clinicians for culturally informed, empirically supported treatments. I also provide diversity training internationally for clinical psychology programs, scientific conferences and community organizations.

Prior to my move to Canada in 2019, I was on the faculty at the University of Pennsylvania medical school, the University of Louisville and then the University of Connecticut, where I had appointments in both psychological science and psychiatry. I've published over 200 scientific articles and am a member of the Royal Society of Canada. My current research includes addressing barriers to care, the assessment of racial trauma, improving cultural competence in the delivery of mental health care services and interventions to reduce racism.

Although I'm not an indigenous person, as a scholar of racism I can confirm that indigenous people experience striking social and societal discrimination that adversely effects their mental health and well-being. My work with indigenous people in Canada includes in-depth mental health assessments for several indigenous women, including some who were subjected to coerced or involuntary sterilization by the Saskatoon health authority.

I also conducted a nationwide study of the mental health needs of diverse Canadians that was published in the International Journal of Mental Health last year. The findings with respect to indigenous people were significant and dovetailed with other research indicating that indigenous people receive a poor quality of care. Sixty-nine per cent said they had experienced difficulties accessing mental health care, significantly more than white Canadians. Indigenous Canadians reported more financial barriers to care than other groups, and even more than other Canadians of colour. The most striking of the findings was that half reported negative experiences with mental health care providers, which we know creates a barrier to treatment adherence and follow-up care.

There are a few critical take-home messages here. For one, we need to incorporate indigenous approaches into how we deliver health care to make it more relevant and palatable for indigenous citizens. Second, we need more indigenous clinicians. There are not enough indigenous providers to provide culturally relevant care to this often highly traumatized population. In 2018, the Canadian Psychological Association drafted a response to the 2015 Truth and Reconciliation Commission report and stated that there are likely fewer than 12 indigenous practising or teaching psychologists in Canada. That would mean that only 0.0006% of the 19,000 psychologists in Canada identify as indigenous.

Notably, psychologists function not only as mental health care providers but also as researchers and scientists. Those best suited to integrate indigenous traditional knowledge and science into government policy are indigenous people themselves. Not only do we need to ensure the active involvement of indigenous people from various regions within Canada, but these efforts need to be led by indigenous scholars and approved by indigenous leaders.

We need to first ask ourselves why there are so precious few indigenous scientists and scholars in Canada in the first place. Less than two years ago, I admitted the first indigenous student into the University of Ottawa's doctoral program in clinical psychology. I've had a front-row seat to the institutional barriers she faces to get the education she needs to become a scholar who can conduct the very research needed to benefit her community.

Earlier last year, I conducted for the Office of the Auditor General a study of the experiences of racialized employees in the federal government. This included the Canada Border Services Agency, Correctional Service Canada, the Department of Justice, the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, Public Safety Canada and the RCMP. The employees shared with us over and over again that rules and policies were ignored as employees of colour experienced unchecked racism that prevented career advancement, and they were subject to retaliation if they reported it.

We can come up with all the good policies we like, but you must understand that if you don't address the systemic racism that infects our institutions at every level, none of it will make a difference. Adopting indigenous knowledge requires us to understand and address the discrimination and systemic barriers that make these changes so challenging in the first place.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's terrific. What a great panel of witnesses. Thank you all for your testimony this morning.

We're now going to move over to questions.

First, I'll welcome Dr. Brendan Hanley as a substitute. We also have Darrell Samson online as a substitute. It's great to have you join our committee this morning.

Our first round of questions goes to Corey Tochor, from the Conservatives, for six minutes.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.

My first question is for Professor Dyck.

Regarding the potential therapeutic benefits of medicines like psilocybin, can you speak to the contemporary research on the medical benefits of these therapies?

[Dr. Erika Dyck]

To be honest, I feel that Monnica Williams is better positioned to answer this question. However, briefly, over the last 12 years, the evidence on psilocybin applications for therapeutic use has really blossomed. There is a growing number of papers and an enormous amount of evidence now suggesting that psilocybin is performing well in clinic trials. The American FDA has identified psilocybin as a breakthrough therapy for the treatment of major depression disorders and for post-traumatic stress disorders.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Let's switch to you, Monnica, for a really brief synopsis of your answer to that question, and then I have a follow-up question for Professor Dyck.

[Monnica Williams]

There is so much research being done right now in the U.S. and Canada. In fact, Canada has been a leader in some of this work, showing the benefits of substances like psilocybin for end-of-life distress and for other indications, such as anxiety, PTSD and depression. Substances like MDMA, ketamine and many others are emerging.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you very much.

I have a follow-up question for Professor Dyck.

We keep hearing that there are some failures with the special access program. In your mind, is it working?

That may be a group question, with Monnica following up as well.

[Dr. Erika Dyck]

I am a historian looking at this from 10,000 feet, so Monnica will have a more close-up impression.

As I understand, the special access program has been increasingly used under the subsection 56(1) exemptions in the last couple of years. This puts more pressure on psychiatrists to act as the gatekeepers in order to access psychedelics. I think there are still challenges with respect to access to good and safe supplies.

Certainly, that was a problem even three years ago, when the subsection 56(1) exemptions came through. I think it is moving in the right direction now, but there still seems to be a backlog.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Monnica, just to focus on the psilocybin aspect of things, what needs to be improved for the special access program to work?

[Monnica Williams]

First of all, we need more clinicians who have the right training and skills to conduct psychedelic-assisted therapies and prescribe those medicines. I think the nature of the program does pose barriers to people who may be marginalized, who may have fewer resources and who may not have access to psychiatrists. If they do, they may not have the type of relationship they need in order to feel they can trust those providers.

We really need to do a deep dive and look at the demographics of the people who are accessing this program, including racial and ethnic demographics, to ensure that it's being rolled out equitably. To my knowledge, this information isn't really being collected in a systemic way, so that would make it really hard to say conclusively who this program is benefiting and who it isn't.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you so much, Monnica.

I have another question. You're probably aware that last fall there was a subcommittee in the Senate that produced a report entitled “The Time is Now” regarding the federal government failing veterans on psilocybin. Can you speak briefly about the benefits of these therapies for veterans?

[Monnica Williams]

We know that many of the empirically supported treatments for PTSD, although they are effective, are not effective for everyone. So many people who have served our country are suffering from PTSD and are not able to have a good quality of life because they've done all the treatments, they've tried all the medicines and they're still suffering. We see many veterans going on trips to places like Jamaica and South America, where they can get psychedelic substances to relieve their PTSD. Believe me, they wouldn't keep going and being sent if it wasn't working.

We really owe our veterans the best we have to offer, and that means if other things haven't worked, why not psychedelics? We have the research that shows it can help so many people, and I think it would really be a vital option for veterans.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you, both of you. I believe my time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have a minute.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Then I'll go back to Professor Dyck to talk about the indigenous aspect.

Do you know of any indigenous individuals who have harmed themselves or others on psilocybin? I cannot find any. Throughout your study of the history of indigenous people, are there any you know of?

[Dr. Erika Dyck]

I don't know of any offhand. I have been working closely with current and past leaders of the Native American Church. Mostly, they work with peyote and not psilocybin, but there have been no reported abuses in that specific transaction.

Of course, as our other witness Lindsay mentioned, there are all sorts of other issues going on. Access to drinking water is a huge issue that overwhelms the conversations about particular drug abuses, if you will. I think that can't be taken out.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's great. Thank you.

Before we go to the next questioner, Dr. Williams, could you raise your mic a bit so that it's level between your mouth and your nose? That's perfect. Thank you. We'll see how that works for our interpreters.

We'll go now to Ryan Turnbull from the Liberals for six minutes, please.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today. Those were fascinating opening remarks. I really value the perspectives you're bringing to this important study.

Ms. Heller, I really enjoyed your opening remarks. I found that they challenged the dominant paradigm or the supremacy of western science, which is something that many of us, as settlers, probably take for granted.

I really appreciated your comment that indigenous traditional knowledge follows a rigorous scientific method and has rigour and soundness, and that there would certainly be dire consequences if some of your observations and results turned out to be false. I think it is a really good way of pointing to accuracy and the imperative that this knowledge is really accurate and applicable. I take all of that as great opening remarks. You almost made me start to think about how we as western settlers need to decolonize our understanding in a sense. I think the systemic barriers are really entrenched in our ways of knowing.

I wanted to ask you what we're up against. I'm sure that if we are allies in the quest to remove those systemic barriers and really give indigenous traditional knowledge the legitimacy it so rightly deserves.... I want to rephrase that because we shouldn't be giving anything to anybody. At the same time, I think it's probably many of us settlers who have to change our mindset.

Can you help us with that? What advice could you give us that would aid in that journey?

[Lindsay Heller]

That's a good question. Do we have an hour to talk about it?

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Yes.