Evidence of meeting #71 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was western.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Yes. That's great. Thank you, Dr. Czuy, for that.
My next question is for you as well.
In your role at the Spark Science Centre, how do you facilitate the integration of multiple ways of knowing science?
12:15 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
It's in multiple ways. There are ways that we do it through, first of all, community connections, really starting with elders, knowledge-keepers and indigenous scientists and listening to their knowledges and what they would like to bring in. Secondly, it's through education. How do we create events that are connected to indigenous science so that everybody can understand, so there's a connection that people can get? It's understanding the frequencies of the drums and the healing of those frequencies to different star maps.
We also do a lot of work with schools and communities to bring experiences out to community. That is both in schools and on the land—in communities on the rez. It allows them to see the depth of science within their knowledge. We do this with an experiential workshop that explores the depth of knowledge with Blackfoot stories of the Makoiyohsokoyi, or the Milky Way. That is connected to many scientific teachings within this story, and it goes back to that original question about story: Story is knowledge.
The Wolf Trail story has significant scientific knowledge within it—predator-prey relationships and living in balance—and tells specifically about a point in the sky from only a few years ago, if you remember the supermassive black hole that was photographed. We were like, “We've known that for thousands of years. That's the wolf eye or the thunderbird egg.” There are many stories.
There's a lot of science within these knowledges. At the science centre, we try to bring those together and make them relatable for everyone—not just for indigenous communities and children and people—to see themselves in science. I never saw myself in science or mathematics when I was growing up, so to have these experiences would have been significant for me. We're trying to do that but for everyone so that everyone can experience and understand the depth of the scientific knowledges that are within these stories. By “stories” I mean science's connection with the land.
February 6th, 2024 / 12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Thank you for that, Dr. Czuy.
I have just one more question. I know I'm getting close to my time, so you might have to put this in writing and send back to us.
Based on your research and professional experience, what are some of the challenges and opportunities in integrating indigenous traditional knowledge with scientific research and policy-making?
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Thank you, and that does look like a homework question. That's a very good question indeed.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
We'll have to move on to our next questioner, Valerie Bradford, for six minutes, please.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you very much.
I'll give you the opportunity to address MP Soroka's question.
12:20 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
Can you repeat the question? It was a big one.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Yes, that's not a problem.
Based on your research and professional experience, what are some challenges and opportunities in integrating indigenous traditional knowledge with scientific research and policy-making?
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
That is basically what this report is all about, so if you could write a report for us....
12:20 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
12:20 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
Yes, I'll just give you that report—that's great.
I think there are so many challenges because, as I mentioned, from an indigenous perspective, there is such a seemingly narrow definition of “science” and how we do, be and know science and math. To me, science and math are under the same umbrella of thriving and understanding the world around us. Unless we can expand the understanding, then I don't know how to move forward.
If we continuously say that we can only do this more objective standardized method of being, doing and knowing science, not just understanding that but implementing it through the written word or a couple of consultations and not through ceremony, then it's not going to be done in a good way. The challenge is, how do we bring together, as mentioned many times before, this idea of breathing and weaving, of braiding? It's bringing these ways of knowing together. All of them have strengths, but often we've only been taught that a western or global scientific way of knowing, being and doing science is the only way to do it. How do we open that up and braid these knowledges together?
The challenge is in really, truly understanding what that means, and the opportunity, I think, is understanding. What are we missing when we're not understanding science in this way? There are so many examples that I can give. There's the example of that one simple Blackfoot word, “naamóó”, and the amount of science within it, and how indigenous languages are being lost and not passed on to the next generation for how long—
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
I want to ask my questions. Thank you for that very fulsome answer, though. That was great.
Thank you to both of our witnesses for the passion and enthusiasm of your opening statements. They were quite remarkable.
Dr. Czuy, I want to get back you. You gave us three things, even though the chair was trying to cut you off with timing. The first one said we should do our work first, and reconciliation is the work of non-indigenous people.
Can you tell the committee more about the importance of building partnerships with the federal, provincial and municipal governments, post-secondary institutions and industry to support indigenous governance and reconciliation? What are your suggestions for how we make that happen?
12:20 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
There are many suggestions. There's the TRC. There's UNDRIP. They're all there. You just have to do them. It's about doing the work to understand what those mean.
We've done our work. I mentioned that there are a ton of resources. A lot of work has been done on how to do this in a good way and how to do this with us and the community.
I have to walk that parallel path everyday. I have to do double the amount of work to do the work I do, and I'm fine with that. Other people have to do that too to understand. They have to do that work—to read and to explore the more subjective way of knowing science. Once you experience that, there is no question what belief is, what knowledge is, and then we're on the same path.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
I wonder if you could expand a bit more on your role as manager of indigenous engagement at the Telus Spark Science Centre. Those of us from Ontario are not even familiar with the Telus Spark Science Centre. We know about the two here in Ontario.
Can you elaborate on your role there and how you employ traditional knowledge in current policies and incorporate it into your daily work?
12:25 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
Number one, it's about community, knowledge-keepers and the elders. That will always be the centre of the work I do. It's about building that trust in myself and building that trust in them to bring forth their ideas on what they think should happen.
Nothing happens without the community. Nothing happens without working with them and creating those relationships. That's the bottom line. That's not necessarily just at the science centre. Any work that is done with indigenous anything should be done alongside communities and should start with listening.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
I think it's wonderful that the Telus Spark Science Centre has a manager of indigenous engagement. I'm not sure that happens at other science centres, so that is wonderful.
12:25 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
Science North is doing some amazing things.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
That's great. That would make sense given that it's in the heart of an indigenous community. Thank you for that. I'm glad to hear it.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Thank you.
Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, you have the floor for six minutes.
12:25 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My questions are for Dr. Gingras.
You clearly explained in your address how to disentangle belief, science and knowledge.
I'd like to hear what you have to say about something that is both simple and yet highly complex, and that is whether there is a universal definition of indigenous knowledge?
12:25 p.m.
Professor of History and Sociology of Science, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
No, there isn't.
To talk about knowledge, you have to begin by establishing that's what it really is. For example, one hears the expression "traditional knowledge". It's important to clearly understand, epistemologically speaking, that just because something is traditional does not mean it's necessarily true. I'll give a straightforward example: For over 1,500 years in Europe, traditional medicine practised bloodletting. All doctors considered bloodletting to be a panacea. At that time, it was traditional knowledge. When doctors began to wonder whether it really worked, they found that it did not, except in very specific cases of hematology. Doctors therefore stopped practising bloodletting, because knowledge had evolved over time. Calling it traditional knowledge doesn't cut it.
Scientific testing of homeopathy proved that it didn't work. Taking homeopathic medicine may do some good, but it's not science. All that we can really say is that science is evolving. We are no longer in the 17th century, but rather the 21st. Everything around us, like television, is the outcome of new scientific knowledge that enables us to understand the world. Science looks forward, not back.
The previous discussion mentioned education, but that's not the same thing as training researchers. There are many ways to learn mathematics, but if Canada wants to send an astronaut to the moon, it's going to be with differential and integral calculus. It can't be done with traditional knowledge.
The word "traditional" is in vogue, but if the intent is to find ways of including traditional knowledge, I would humbly say that if you go in that direction, you'll get nowhere. People need to be consulted about their environment, and what they say needs to be verified. If what they say is true, then it becomes knowledge.
There is always talk about tradition. I don't have anything against traditions, but the entire history of science shows that traditions evolve. Einstein discovered the theory of relativity. Does that make it Jewish science? No, it doesn't. Einstein was Jewish, but there is no such thing as Jewish science. The Nazis wanted Jewish science and the communists wanted proletarian science, but they don't exist. There is universal science, whether by Russians, Germans, Chinese or Israelis. That mustn't be forgotten, because if it is, we'll be heading in a dangerous direction, as history has shown. Individuals ought not to be affiliated with a community by referring to things like Quebec science. There is no Quebec science. There is no Canadian science, but there are Canadians who are practising science.
It's not just playing with words. If you believe that there is such a thing as Canadian science, you might as well be saying that there is Jewish science and Russian science. It's not true. But there are Russian scientists and there are Quebec scientists and there are Chinese scientists.
If you want to meet your objective, then it's essential to incorporate knowledge. The knowledge that you need to build into scientific policies is not traditional knowledge, but rather knowledge "simplicity", as philosophers put it. It means knowledge that has been validated. How can it be tested? By using known methods. It requires corroboration and calculations. Computers can be used. Methods have been available to do this since Galileo's time, and they are used around the world.
12:30 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I'd like to hear what you have to say about the scientific verification process. Some researchers have said that there is a hierarchy of knowledge and that traditional knowledge ought not to be compared to today's scientific data.
12:30 p.m.
Professor of History and Sociology of Science, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
My view is that this too is based on confusion. There is no hierarchy of knowledge. Knowledge is true or false. In the 18th century, British and French physicists argued over whether the earth was perfectly spherical or flattened at the poles or the equator. There were two theories, and hence a conflict. What was done? They didn't just say that according to British knowledge it was oblate and according to French knowledge it was prolate. They sent a team of researchers to the poles to measure the meridians. The conclusion was that the English were right, and that the Earth bulges somewhat at the equator because its rotation generates centrifugal force.
When I taught physics at the CEGEP level, I explained to my students that the Earth's rotation generated centrifugal force. This is universal knowledge. It was discovered by Newton, but the fact that he was British is not important. It could have been discovered by a Chinese person. We have to stop messing with the hierarchy. Knowledge is true or false, but not Chinese. Thinking otherwise can lead to serious issues.