Evidence of meeting #71 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was western.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
We've got the thought down. Thank you very much.
Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, you have two and a half minutes, please.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Gingras, I'll continue with you. You gave some examples, even from a historical standpoint, of geocentrism, heliocentrism and Galileo. There is nothing new about humans being faced with two beliefs, no matter what their own religious beliefs or their ethnic community might be. The scientific method was developed to deal with such matters.
I'd like to hear what you have to say about attempts to oppose indigenous people and non-indigenous people, as if they were two homogeneous groups, when they are really two separate heterogeneous groups with internal differences. It means that there may be different forms of knowledge within each of these groups.
12:50 p.m.
Professor of History and Sociology of Science, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
Yes, that's true of every community. Everybody knows that, sociologically speaking, there are no homogeneous communities. They don't exist. Let's take Canadians as an example. Some Canadians vote for the Liberals, others for the Conservatives, and some don't vote at all. There are all kinds of people. We have to avoid falling into a form of "neo-racism". It's important to call it what it is, even though it's a scary word. It's sociologically dangerous. In attempting to be kind, forms of neo-racism can develop. The development of democratic societies was based on the premise that individuals are equal and have access to education; that at least was the sometimes false expectation. But if we want to help people who are oppressed, they need grants for education. What they will learn, however, is arithmetic, meaning algebra, as developed by the Arabs. And yet Arabs don't claim that it's their algebra and that Canadians ought not to have access to it. Trying to be specific about everything can lead to the emergence of potentially dangerous attitudes, as history has demonstrated.
It's important to remember that science is universal and that everyone can contribute if they are given the required resources. Schools, clean water, colleges, universities and bursaries are needed. That would make it possible to train people in how to apply modern techniques for improving life and the environment. Prayers alone will not help to combat climate change. It needs to be done with the best available technologies, and everyone can contribute. At the moment, some are contributing less because they are poor and live in places that do not have enough schools. We live in a concrete world, not a world of abstract thought that is often crypto-religious. Though religion is important and personal, science has transcended it since the 18th century. As I previously said, we live in a techno-scientific world, meaning that we can't go back to the past on communitarian grounds.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Thank you.
Next is Mr. Cannings for two and a half minutes to bring us home.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to turn back to Dr. Czuy.
Out of my own curiosity, you mentioned some of the different numerical-based systems used by indigenous communities. I remember studying Central American indigenous astronomy systems when I was in university, the Mayans using base 20.
Could you give a few examples of that kind of indigenous knowledge around the world that deals with how they are seeing and making sense of the universe?
12:50 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
Absolutely.
Indigenous languages and indigenous knowledge are not universal, but there is a universality of connection to a specific land. Indigenous people have a spiritual, relational connection to the land, and the land teaches them. From that connection have arisen mathematics, science and chemistry from around the world, and with that, number systems. We use base 10 from our 10 fingers, but many indigenous people use different.... You mentioned base 20 for your 10 fingers and 10 toes. All of these have cultural connections.
A really cool example was taught to me when I was doing some work in Hawaii, if you want some more diverse examples. There's a base four in Hawaii. Four is very significant because fish and fish farms are very significant. It was their food source, so people would go down to the fish farms and the fish traps that are thousands of years old and would catch fish, and they would bring them back to their community. They could hold a fish between each of their fingers, so there were four fish in one hand and four fish in the other.
Because that was so significant, everything revolved around four and base four. When we say that base four is not significant, that it's not valid or that this way of knowing, which is very significant to this community and has deep scientific, mathematical and biological connections, is less valid, it is harmful. I think it's very interesting to embrace the diversities within this knowledge and what we can learn from them for ourselves as well.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Terrific. That's a great note to end on—getting into base four and base 20. I have an English degree and a math minor, and the stories between the two of them about how you construct a theorem, whether it's in English or mathematics, are a whole other thing that my head has been going around as we talk.
Thank you to our witnesses, Kori Czuy and Yves Gingras, for your testimonies and your participation, and for making us think in new ways so that we can do our study on the integration of indigenous traditional knowledge and science in government policy development.
Again, if you have any additional information you'd like to share with the committee, it would be helpful for us.
We will be adjourning, but before we do, I will just remind you that we will be getting together on Thursday, February 8, with regard to this study for some more testimony, and then we'll be winding it up next Tuesday with testimony.
Is it the will of the committee to adjourn?
12:55 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal