Evidence of meeting #72 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was different.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carole Lévesque  Full Professor, Indigenous Peoples Research and Knowledge Network
Marjolaine Tshernish  Executive Director, Institut Tshakapesh
Jessica Lazare  Mohawk Council of Kahnawake
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Philip den Ouden
Nancy Turner  Distinguished Professor Emerita, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Vicki Kelly  Associate Professor, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mrs. Lévesque, I want to continue with you to be sure I understand.

You say that indigenous knowledge is a way of knowing different from traditional science. As you said, the scientific method has a standardized process.

If there are two different ways of knowing that don't employ the same scientific process, since you say it isn't necessarily applicable, how do we then distinguish true from false?

How do we distinguish beliefs, traditions, opinions and hypotheses from reality, as well as knowledge, which can be validated by peers, by a standardized scientific process?

11:35 a.m.

Full Professor, Indigenous Peoples Research and Knowledge Network

Carole Lévesque

I really like your question. It gives me a chance to repeat that the Dialog network has created spaces where it's possible to come together, and it continues to do so. We don't aim to change science completely, just as we don't aim to change knowledge systems completely, but we can create meeting spaces where we can find common denominators.

Getting back to your question about how to distinguish knowledge from an opinion or belief, you have to see all the work that's being done in the social sciences. We're trained to determine whether we're talking about actual knowledge that has been validated by people, that is to say, knowledge as opposed to opinion.

That's characteristic of the social sciences. Consequently, all I can do is state what I think in my own field.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Thank you.

I'm being a little lenient on the time, because we have a witness here, but we do need to stick as close as we can to the six minutes.

Next, we have Mr. Cannings, for the final six minutes.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Thank you, and thank you to all the witnesses for being here today. It's very interesting.

I'm going to start with Chief Lazare.

In your position as chief of Kahnawake, how does your government use indigenous knowledge in its work, and how does it use western or settler science in its work? How does that come together? You've talked about emphasizing the similarities. Can you comment on some practical examples of how that happens?

11:35 a.m.

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake

Chief Jessica Lazare

I will, to the best of my knowledge, because I'm not a scientist, practically.

We have different departments in the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake. A predominant one would be, for example, the environment protection office. The work they do is to protect the lands that we have, unfortunately, been huddled into. They do a lot of work monitoring creeks, soils, waterways and air. They look at this in a natural science way, sending it out to get tested: “What's in the air? What's in here?” At the same time, we're looking at global warming. We're looking at all the different things that have come up around us in society, including cars, trains and boats or ships. As you know, all three pass through our community. We're looking at how that impacts the air quality and the soil, and how the earth cleans itself.

Mother earth has always been able to clean itself. It's always been able to sustain itself and take care of itself. However, with human interaction and human invasion in general, it has a hard time trying to keep up. There is more damage done than the earth can repair. As you know, trees can clean air and soil. The roots.... They're all connected. The teachings of all of that are within the languages and stories. I know that, for some, this is hard to understand. How can you learn something so scientific from a story, from passing it on and telling stories? However, if you really pay attention to the words and to what the root of the story is, you learn why these relationships are so important to one another. If we start cutting down all the trees and just save the roots, the air quality is gone. The soil quality is gone because those trees will end up dying. It is the same thing for plants. In Canada, we have a lot of invasive species that have come onto this land and destroyed the natural ecosystems that work around us.

On top of what KEPO does in its own department, it also works with our consultation committee, which very often—on a weekly basis—gets submissions for consultation in order to check off boxes in different permit applications. Unfortunately, that's all it ends up being. It's someone to talk to. It's just a checked-off box: “Okay, we talked to them and that's it.” They're not actually taking in our information, our understanding of the world or our hunting and harvesting practices. All of those are balanced with what we know about the science and the relationships among all the natural beings.

We can't do too much hunting, or else the balance won't be sustainable. There are deer culls that happen. They go hunting for deer because there is an overpopulation. That is another way of trying to sustain balance. There are all these different methodologies in my community, from the offices and the departments I work with in the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake to community members developing programs to revitalize and spread that knowledge, because a lot of it was.... I don't want to say that it was taken from us, because we still have it. However, they tried to suppress a lot of it. Very few people hold the knowledge. Now, from what I'm witnessing, our community members are trying to revitalize that. It's very cultural, but it's also scientific. There's a reason why we did things the way we did them.

Another thing is ceremony. This is probably a strange concept, incorporating ceremony into science. However, this is how we greet the natural world and everything that was given to us by our Creator. All of that is very important. It reminds us that we are just living on this land. It is not ours. These beings are not ours to own. It's not ours to destroy. We have to work together in order to see what we call the “yearly cycle” continue. Those ceremonies are based in language and ways of life, reminding us seasonally what we give thanks for, why we give thanks, what these different medicines are for and what the roles and responsibilities are of the animals, trees, plants and waters. If we have no fish in the water, there's not going to be any clean water. It's those kinds of things.

My Kahnawake people, which is the Mohawk people, have known this since time immemorial. We have known these teachings and carried them on using stories to tell children so that, when they are young, they start to understand. When you tell stories to children, it's a lot more interesting and a lot more engaging for children than having a speech like this. There are different tools and different methodologies that come into play and, of course, we want our children to grow up knowing these things, holding these things, instead of having to teach them later in life, instead of having to teach them when it's a little too late.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Thank you.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Thank you.

Thank you, Richard, for allowing the space for that answer. These committee meetings quite often are so quick that we don't get that level of answer.

Thank you for the answer.

Thank you for the space, Richard.

Now we're going, for the next five minutes, to Corey Tochor.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

Chief Lazare, you spoke about the importance of mother earth and the roles of animals. You had some questions earlier at committee when unfortunately there were members who snickered when we talked about the importance of hunting. Could you highlight some of the hunting stories that elders would share with the next generation to understand the importance of hunting and, within the context of the knowledge, how we interact with mother earth and animals?

11:40 a.m.

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake

Chief Jessica Lazare

Do you want me to just share more on that topic?

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Yes, please.

February 8th, 2024 / 11:40 a.m.

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake

Chief Jessica Lazare

In Kahnawake culture, we have Kanien'kehá:ka onkwawén:na raotitióhkwa: “words before all else”. I'm sure you've heard it in different forums. You've heard either chiefs or elders, or even young people who are starting to be able to speak in these public forums, recite these words: Kanien'kehá:ka onkwawén:na raotitióhkwa. This translates to “words before all else”; it matters before all else.

Before we begin our days, before we begin meetings, we have to bring our minds as one. We all have to think together. I am trying to translate it in my head. It's very hard to translate. I have three languages in my head. We first give thanks to mother earth. We give thanks for everything she has given us: for giving the land that we walk on; for allowing the plants to grow from her; for having the waters. We give thanks for the waters, for the fish and the waters. We give thanks for the trees, the animals, and all living beings. It goes down to insects. It goes down to the roots. It goes up to the winds that bring the seeds of change and whatnot.

All of this is to say that our roles and responsibilities as humans are to coexist with all of these living beings and that we are not superseding them. We are not paramount. We are equal to all of these different beings. We are equally important.

In my teachings, when it comes to hunting and harvesting, the Creator has given those animals for us to be able to sustain ourselves. When it comes to a hunter seeing a deer or a harvester seeing medicines, the teaching is “don't pick the first one”. For medicines, you know that it's because that might be the last one. You wait until you see a few more so that you know you're not picking the last one. That's a sustainable practice, because we know that if we pick the last one, it's gone. It's the same thing for hunting. We know that it's very hard to hunt. Sometimes it takes hours and sometimes it takes days until that deer presents itself or the moose presents itself, and then you are finally able to harvest that animal to feed your family for sustenance.

You have to understand that there have been a lot of changes to the way that we conduct ourselves. Sometimes others are not hunters and families are not hunters, so there are hunters who go out to hunt for other families. We share those kinds of sustenance. We share those protocols. We share those understandings.

I hope I'm answering your question, because I can go on forever about this.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Well, just to narrow it down, because I know I don't have much time, what would you say to people who snicker at the thought that hunting isn't important for indigenous people in Canada or that the practices that have been handed down for generations could stop under the current government? What would you say to the snickering or to the people who don't understand the importance of hunting to the community and the importance of, as you touched on a bit, the sharing in the community with the harvest? Can you expand a bit on that?

11:45 a.m.

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake

Chief Jessica Lazare

I would say that it's very sad to see that there is a lack of understanding, a lack of willingness to understand a different culture, a different practice, a different world view.

I would say that if you want to learn, we'll take you hunting. If you want to learn, come to our community, and we'll show you what it means to be a community. We'll show you what it means to us to harvest, so that you can fully understand and that snickering can be discontinued.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

It's frustrating to me, as a parliamentarian and as a fellow hunter, that our way of life is being challenged, that because we have hunting rifles, it somehow affects crime in downtown Toronto. That seems ridiculous to me. Are there people in your community who also think that connection is false?

11:45 a.m.

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake

Chief Jessica Lazare

Yes, for sure. I do believe that a lot of the things that indigenous peoples do, especially the Kahnawa'kehró:non, the people of Kahnawake, seem ridiculous and illegal to the outside. That's another one of the challenges we face—and I'm going to speak for Kahnawake, because I'm not from the other community—and we feel that it's unfair.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Thank you so much.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Thank you for the testimony and the questions.

We now go to Mr. Turnbull for five minutes, please.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Thank you to both of the witnesses. I really appreciate the discussion and the space that you're helping us create here.

Chief Lazare, maybe I'll start with you. Right at the end of your opening remarks, you made a comment about listening and the importance of listening. You made a distinction that I'm very fond of, which is listening for the sake of listening rather than for responding. I think you said—

11:45 a.m.

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake

Chief Jessica Lazare

I said “listening to understand”.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

It's listening to understand, which is very different. Do you want to unpack that for members? I think that's really important. It may relate to some of your other testimony today, which is how important it is to bring an open mind and the right sort of attitude. My perspective is that it's a kind of attitude that you bring to learning, but maybe you'd say it differently; I don't know. Could you unpack that a little bit more for us and how important that is?

11:45 a.m.

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake

Chief Jessica Lazare

Yes, for sure. In the different forums that I've worked in and spoken in, I have found that listening to understand opens up a more productive dialogue and one that is more conducive to learning from different perspectives, from speaking with my children to speaking professionally.

When you just listen to respond, it demonstrates that you're listening in a defensive mode, that you're already blocked up and you're not opening yourself up to understanding. You're having a discussion or a forum to engage in and to learn from, and you're only speaking to respond and critique what you're hearing, instead of saying, “Okay, tell me more.”

We may have disagreements. We may not understand each other, but the whole point of having a conversation and communicating with each other is to learn what those points of view are. We can agree to disagree; that's fair. That happens at my table. We can agree to disagree. I am the youngest at my table of 12. That honestly gives me a different perspective from that of the oldest or the longest-standing member of my table.

It's good to have that kind of diversity. It's good to have those kinds of dialogues and discussions, because you bring out different perspectives to one common goal. You bring out all of these different things that you may not have considered. There are a lot of things that I may not have considered. For example, you could say, “This is what I understand about this. Okay, do you know what? Maybe we can bring this in too.” That's how you learn. That's how you progress, and that's how you can be conducive to resolving issues.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Thank you.

Maybe just as a quick follow-up to that, I think what I've heard you say—or how I've taken it—is that, when you are listening to understand, you're open and willing to change your perspective and see things from a new perspective.

11:50 a.m.

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake

Chief Jessica Lazare

I would say that you evolve your perspective.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Yes.

11:50 a.m.

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake

Chief Jessica Lazare

It's good to have your convictions, but at the same time, it's good to evolve and to change, as we are natural beings.