Science and Research Committee on Feb. 8th, 2024

[Dr. Nancy Turner, Distinguished Professor Emerita, University of Victoria, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to everyone for the technical help we've received.

I acknowledge, with respect, the people and lands of the Snuneymuxw First Nation, where I am at present, and the indigenous peoples across Canada and beyond.

I want to recognize, with deep gratitude, the many indigenous knowledge-keepers who have generously shared their knowledge and wisdom with me over the past 50-plus years.

I am an ethnobotanist and ethnoecologist, trained in western biological sciences, but also in anthropology and geography. I have worked in many indigenous communities and have come to appreciate the importance of language in communicating knowledge—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry. I have to suspend for two seconds. We do not have interpretation services on.

Could you start from the beginning? We'll see if we can pick up on the interpretation services.

I've paused the time here.

[Dr. Nancy Turner]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I acknowledge, with respect, the people—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Pardon me, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry. We don't have interpretation services, so I have to interrupt again.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, the interpreter tells us that the sound quality is not good and that interpretation is therefore impossible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Do we have a House-approved headset?

[Dr. Nancy Turner]

Yes, my husband went and bought it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Oh no. Okay.

We might have to go to you second, then, Dr. Turner. I'm sorry. Maybe we could have technical support work to see if we can improve the quality of sound. It isn't enough for the interpreters to do their job.

We can move over to Dr. Kelly while we try to resolve yours. I'm sorry to interrupt, but we do need to have presentations in both official languages to continue.

We'll go over to Dr. Kelly for five minutes, please.

[Dr. Vicki Kelly, Associate Professor, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual]

Aanii. Boozhoo.

Thank you for the invitation and honour to be here with you today. I am speaking from the unceded, traditional ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples.

I am Anishinabe Métis from northwestern Ontario. As the director of the indigenous research institute, I have been working with the SFU research and ethics offices to create a series of dialogues on indigenous knowledges and ethics to create a new ground for the work of the research services and the research community at SFU. As an indigenous scholar, I work in the areas of indigenous ecological health and art education.

First, I would like to acknowledge that this conversation is taking place within the circle of world views, and is ultimately about creating the capacity to respectfully honour the tacit infrastructures of their profound diversity. We are endeavouring to collectively honour the diverse ways of coming to know the world around us. This is an act of resistance to the dominant paradigm of universalism, or the dominance of one world view through globalization and colonization. It is the capacity of living well within the circle of knowledges, or two-eyed seeing, as a pathway to many-eyed seeing that we are longing to develop.

Second, science is the act of knowing or coming to know, and the creation of a body of knowledge within a system or world view. It is attending deeply to the world such that we read the patterns and become wisely aware, enabling us to act ecologically respectful of all our relations. What kind of relative do we want to be?

Third, a discipline is the object of knowledge or instruction and learning about a field of knowledge. What is the pedagogical pathway of wholeness that our ancestors are inviting us into? What kinds of ancestors do we want to be?

Lastly, policy is a way of managing and the study of the practice of government. It creates the structures of governance, or protocols for the processes that guide or govern life in practice, as it unfolds.

What are our responsibilities to the next generations?

My understanding is that this work is about trans-systemic understandings of science and an interdisciplinary or holistic engagement with coming to know about the world, ultimately honouring kinship and the governance of being a good relative to our human and more-than-human relatives, for life's sake.

My vision involves five principles or protocols: reverence, to walk with humility and reverence for life; respect, to respect all ways of being and the right to be and become; responsibility, to walk in a good way, honouring our responsibility as a member within the family of Creation; reciprocity, to take good care of and offer back in gratitude for what we have been given; relationality, to live relationally and ethically in relation to all our relations.

Part of this vision is to invite us to sit in a circle as a human family, and in the centre of our care and concern are our relatives and mother earth. Our social and ecological crises are inviting us to turn into the circle and to focus on the right of being of our human and more-than-human relatives and mother earth.

Most importantly, this is the third element or strand in the braid, and the most important part of the act of braiding sweetgrass, our humble offering. It is honouring the personhood of nature and the rights of nature by braiding indigenous and western sciences with the being of nature respectfully, responsibly, in reciprocity with ethical relationality. It is gathering in circles of care around the third strand in the braid—the well-being of nature and mother earth. This should be the governing principle of policy moving forward, for what is Canada without the being of the land?

Thank you. Chi-meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you for your testimony.

I'm going to welcome back Dr. Tshernish. You've changed locations. Maybe we can have your five-minute testimony while we work on the other technical issues.

We can't hear you. Turn off mute.

[Marjolaine Tshernish]

Okay. Pardon me.

Can you hear me now?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I think that's good.

[Marjolaine Tshernish]

Good afternoon and thank you for inviting me once again to this meeting.

My name is Marjolaine Tshernish, and I am an Innu from the community of Maliotenam. I work for and with my nation. I also work with elderly persons and various other groups. We support schools, promote our culture and conduct activities to protect our future as well as our traditional knowledge and language. I speak the Innu language and practise Innu culture.

In the context of this study on the integration of traditional knowledge in government policies, we really need to question what the objectives of this initiative are and understand the objectives we need to achieve.

As you know, there are many nations across Canada. We have two language families and we have cultural diversity. Our cultures are different, our beliefs are different, and our ways of thinking are as well. However, many aspects of our cultures are very similar. We attach importance to the stories of our ancestors, our legends, the land and everything that surrounds us in life.

As we can see, the hierarchy of first nations values differs from that of the dominant society's values. In my organization, I work with Innu and non-indigenous persons, and I can see they follow different pathways. Our ways of living are truly different.

The people of my generation have a major responsibility. We are the bearers of our traditions. We must ensure that we pass on our traditional knowledge and language. We are also under considerable pressure to be educated, to earn diplomas and to meet the expectations of the dominant society.

Traditional knowledge is important, as are our elders as well. Their memory is very important, and that must always be taken into account. I know that the traditional knowledge of first nations elders affords major benefits in certain government departments, but I'm not sure traditional knowledge will be integrated in government policies in others.

For example, everything pertaining to sacred practices is part of our traditional knowledge. The way we think is very different from that of other cultures. Our language, Innu-aimun, comes from the land. We use it on the land, and we use it here, on our reserves, in our communities. The translation of Innu words is very complex because of their meaning.

Consequently, that knowledge and those beliefs often aren't consistent with the way things are done in the political system, a system that doesn't suit us.

That political system was imposed on us by band councils, a situation that conflicted with our values and beliefs. We can see that the population hasn't embraced the change, and this has caused conflict between our values and those new systems. Our population seems lost as a result—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you. I'm sorry to have to cut you short, but we are over time.

We're going to try to go to Dr. Turner. The technical people have made some adjustments.

Dr. Turner, could you try to do your opening? We'll see whether translation is able to pick up what you're saying.

[Dr. Nancy Turner]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for the technical help I've received.

I have listened with appreciation to the other witnesses as well.

I acknowledge with respect the people and lands of the Snuneymuxw First Nation, where I am at present, and indigenous peoples across Canada and beyond. I want to recognize with deep gratitude the many indigenous knowledge-keepers who have generously shared their knowledge and wisdom with me over the last 50-plus years.

I am an ethnobotanist and ethnoecologist trained in western biological sciences but also in anthropology and geography. I have worked in many indigenous communities and have come to appreciate the importance of language and communicating knowledge, in particular about plants and environments. I also recognize the importance of traditional food, cultural materials, medicines, narratives and ceremony based on relationships with other species and their habitats. I have been out on the lands and waters with my indigenous colleagues and teachers, and I have been able to observe first-hand the deep historical connections to species and locales of people's homelands.

It's important to recognize, as I know you do, that cultural groups living in their own homelands have their own particular knowledge grounded in place, often reflecting residency over thousands of years. The habitats and places within their territories—the wetlands, shorelines, mountain slopes, forests, lakes, rivers, trails, camping places and healing sites—all have special meaning, often with their own place names, stories, history and proprietorship.

I've been learning for years and years about the importance of plants and other life for first peoples, but it took a very long time before I began to realize just how deep the relationships have been between indigenous peoples and other species and the sophistication and complexity of their knowledge and caretaking practices relating to other species and their habitats, as well as how much communication, exchange and adaptation of knowledge have occurred across nations over time.

For example, the clam gardens, now recognized ancient beach features up and down the northwest coast, were unrecognized as anthropogenic features by the scientists who first described them. It was only after Kwaxsistalla Wathl’thla, clan chief Adam Dick of the Dzawada’enux Kwakwaka'wakw community, explained what they were and how they were created and maintained over generations that they came to be identified as such.

Traditional ecological knowledge systems of indigenous peoples are often compared with western scientific knowledge, but in fact they extend into many other realms, from language to education and governance, and they almost invariably embody a world view of stewardship, respect, reciprocity and relationality with other species and with the earth. They've supported the development of a range of traditional land and resource caretaking approaches that have included careful use of landscape burning, selective harvesting, replanting propagules and many other techniques, learned, shared and adapted over time and space.

With time constraints, I will skip over the examples I have of programs that I've worked on—the scientific panel for sustainable forest practices in Clayoquot Sound; the Nuxalk food and nutrition program in Bella Coola; and the Reconciling Ways of Knowing online forum—which have attempted to use both western science and indigenous knowledge equally in developing solutions to particular problems.

The commitments that Canada has made in ratifying, adopting and creating a draft action plan based on the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission provide an obvious and appropriate starting point in your work. With full participation and leadership from indigenous knowledge-keepers, educational programs and courses for all government members can be developed to inform them about indigenous peoples' history and languages and about the underlying principles of indigenous cultures and environmental knowledge systems and how these differ from and/or connect with scientific beliefs or understandings.

At least some parts of these educational programs should take place on the ground as participatory learning and in consultation with the indigenous nations affected by the policies being developed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

I'm going to have to stop there. You can also give us testimony in writing or as part of the answers to questions, which we will go into right away.

Thank you to the technical support people and to the translators for being able to get us the testimony today.

We'll go over to Mr. Lobb for six minutes, please.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank everybody for their presentations today.

My first question is for Ms. Tshernish.

A lot of the discussion in the last number of meetings has been specifically on integrating into the environment. I think there's been a lot discussion about the natural environment. I was wondering, though, if there are other areas where government should look at integrating or weaving in different departments where there might be some benefit, maybe in housing or in health care. Just looking around some of our main streets in the downtown core, there are a lot of issues right now. I'm wondering if maybe some of the solutions could be in some of the traditional knowledge.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Marjolaine Tshernish]

I'm sorry, but I didn't understand the question. Would the interpreter please summarize the question because the point of it wasn't clear in the translation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I have paused. Maybe we could ask it again in a different way.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Sure. I can try that again.

It wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of saying a whole bunch of things that didn't come through clearly, I guess.

What I would ask plainly is, are there teachings other than in the natural environment? There's been a lot of discussion about the natural environment. Are there other teachings and cultural practices that we should look at weaving into government policy, such as on housing, the shortage of housing or some of the other societal ills, where we can maybe learn from our first peoples about what would make a lot of sense in our government policies?

[Marjolaine Tshernish]

I know the elders and guardians of the land issue a lot of alerts. They are the eyes of the first nations, which have now become sedentary. They observe the impact of climate change when they're on the land and provide a lot of information to environmentalists and biologists. Elders have also been issuing warnings about the changes they see for many decades now.

As regards policies, the answer is yes, especially on economic and trade issues. It's important to consume responsibly.

When we hunt caribou, we stick to the number necessary to support our population. The caribou was used in many ways, particularly in the remedies used in traditional first nations medicine. We also used parts of the animal to create instruments like the teueikan. Certain parts of the animal were used to feed us, while others were used to make tools and clothing. The caribou has enabled us to survive for millennia. Consequently, nothing is ever wasted.

Now we're seeing excess consumption. We aren't husbanding our natural resources and there's a lot of waste. We aren't living symbiotically with the environment by respecting it. We put it in second place, subordinating it to human beings. However, these are living beings as well, and I believe we should attach much greater importance to the earth that feeds us and guarantees our survival and that of our wildlife. I therefore believe that our way of viewing the world should be taken into consideration.

I should also mention the way our elders are treated. Our elders are very important to us. They transmit their memory to us, and I think we should be inspired by what we have done, by our values and our principles. That could be helpful when policies are drafted or amended.

Respect is another of our fundamental values, in many ways. There is respect for differences, for example. That should be reflected in the policies we adopt. There is also respect for the beliefs and principles of groups, for the hierarchy of values, which is different, and for the approach they take. All that is based on historical context and our language, which crystallizes our thinking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you. That was a terrific question that we could have gone on with a lot longer, but you've given us some great insights into looking at things differently.

Dr. Jaczek, you have six minutes, please.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

To all our witnesses, thank you for your testimony. As you know, what we are trying to do on this committee is study how best to integrate indigenous traditional knowledge and science into government policy development. I would really like to hear from you some practical suggestions as to how we might do this. Government policy can be initiated, as an example, through federal government agencies. I'm thinking about research dollars and things like CIHR, NSERC, etc.

What would you say about some of those government agencies being required to look for indigenous collaboration or consultation in some fashion in granting those research dollars? I just throw that one out, but do you have any suggestions?

Perhaps, Dr. Turner, we could start with you.

[Dr. Nancy Turner]

Thank you very much for that question. I think it's a really important one.

One of the points I was planning to make in my talk was to note that there's often a major funding disparity between western scientists, academics, and their students and indigenous knowledge-keepers and those indigenous youth and others who are interested in learning about their lands. Many elders in first nations communities, even some of the most knowledgeable, live below the poverty line and need to rely on others to take them out on the land. They don't necessarily have the same level of equipment, travel grants or salaries that are needed to get out.

Therefore, I think addressing this deficit for indigenous peoples and communities should be a major priority. That can be accomplished through the federal granting agencies, as you've mentioned, or through other means. Making sure that indigenous knowledge-keepers have the same financial backing that western academics and scientists have would be really important.