Science and Research Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I call the meeting to order. We'll get started.

Thank you, members, for your indulgence. Thank you, witnesses, for waiting for us to get going.

Welcome to meeting number 73 of the Standing Committee on Science and Research. Today's meeting will be taking place in a hybrid format. Members are attending in person and....

We have Mr. Lobb online. I welcome Mr. Lobb. While I'm doing welcomes, I can also welcome Ms. Kayabaga, who is a new permanent member of our committee.

You can speak in either official language. For interpretation of what is being said, please use the earpiece provided. If you're on Zoom, you can choose “English”, “French” or “floor”. For members in person, be careful with your earpiece. Make sure it doesn't get close to the microphone so that we don't have any feedback on our translators.

Thank you, translators, for the work you do for us.

All questions should be addressed through the chair.

We'll get started now with the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 18, 2023, the committee resumes its study on the integration of indigenous traditional knowledge and science in government policy development.

It's my pleasure to welcome our witnesses today from Environment and Climate Change Canada. We have Patrice Simon, director general, wildlife and landscape science; Dominique Henri, research scientist; and Cheryl-Ann Johnson, researcher, wildlife ecology.

You can present to us in five minutes. Then we'll go to our questioning round. I'm looking at the clock. We should be able to get a round of six minutes in for each party in the room.

You have five minutes, Mr. Simon.

[Patrice Simon, Director General, Wildlife and Landscape Sciences, Department of the Environment]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for this invitation to speak about the use of indigenous traditional knowledge in addition to western science in federal government policy.

I want to take this opportunity to recognize that I am speaking today on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

I'm the director general of the wildlife and landscape sciences directorate within the science and technology branch of Environment and Climate Change Canada. The importance of conducting interdisciplinary research and considering different knowledge systems is increasingly seen as critical in science.

We are the largest scientific research organization on wildlife in Canada. Our team of scientists conducts research across the country on issues related to wildlife and their habitat, including drivers of population change, health, disease and contaminants, focusing on species of federal responsibility. We apply many novel approaches and methods to address urgent wildlife conservation questions, including genetic and genomics techniques, earth observation and remote sensing technologies, ecotoxicology methods, high-performance computing and machine learning, and modelling.

We also work with indigenous knowledge. Our teams collaborate with indigenous peoples across Canada on collection and interpretation.

I am pleased to be joined today by two of our accomplished researchers, Dominique Henri and Cheryl-Ann Johnson. They have spent much of their careers working with indigenous knowledge and its incorporation into science advice.

I would like to invite them to describe to you their work that demonstrates their commitment to co-developed research with indigenous partners, and the use of innovative and inclusive approaches that bridge, braid and weave indigenous knowledge into scientific research that leads to more comprehensive knowledge.

Ms. Henri undertakes research that addresses indigenous community priorities related to wildlife, climate change and cultural heritage. She leads an interdisciplinary research program aiming to mobilize indigenous and western knowledge systems on culturally significant species under federal jurisdiction, to support wildlife co-management and sustainable use, particularly in Arctic and northern Canada.

Ms. Johnson is an acknowledged national expert on caribou who has been instrumental in developing the identification of critical habitat requirements for the recovery of boreal caribou. She has spent 10 years co-generating knowledge with Arctic Inuit communities for the identification of critical habitat, including sea ice, for the threatened Peary caribou.

I will now turn it over to Ms. Henri.

[Dr. Dominique Henri, Research Scientist, Department of the Environment]

Thank you, Mr. Simon.

Good morning.

It's a pleasure to be participating in today's meeting.

My name is Dominique Henri.

I'm a social scientist with Environment and Climate Change Canada, with training in human geography and anthropology.

As a non-indigenous researcher, I have had the privilege over the years of working with and learning from many indigenous elders, leaders, scholars and hunters. Most of the projects I have contributed to have taken place in Inuit Nunangat, the Inuit homelands within Canada, and I have focused on species that are culturally important to Inuit, especially polar bears—nanuk—white geese and common eider ducks.

Our research program relies on community-based, community-engaged and participatory processes. Indigenous partners actively take part in decisions about the research at every project phase from design to the interpretation and sharing of our results.

We employ social science methods, such as interviews and participatory mapping, to gather and document indigenous knowledge and science about the environment and human-environment relationships. We then create spaces through workshops and sharing circles where indigenous knowledge holders, social scientists, natural scientists and decision-makers can engage in interdisciplinary and intercultural dialogue. We weave together indigenous and western sciences through collaborative research, with the ultimate goal of supporting wildlife co-management and policy development.

We work closely with indigenous partners to ensure that our research supports free, prior and informed consent, as well as indigenous data sovereignty. We are committed to involving and training indigenous youth to enhance indigenous research capacity and foster intergenerational learning.

In this way, not only is indigenous knowledge documented through our projects; importantly, it guides and drives the research process—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you. I think we'll have to call it there, because we are at five minutes.

We will start our six minutes with Ms. Rempel Garner.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Simon, would your department have the responsibility for informing the content of recovery strategies for species listed under the Species at Risk Act?

[Patrice Simon]

The department would, yes. Our group provides science advice to be considered by the recovery team for species at risk.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I read a paper written by Hill, Schuster and Bennett in 2019, entitled “Indigenous involvement in the Canadian species at risk recovery process”. It said that “fewer than half of recovery strategies show evidence of any involvement of indigenous people in their preparation, and involvement varies drastically among regions and federal agencies.”

Would that be a correct assessment today? It was published in 2019.

[Patrice Simon]

There are probably people better placed than I am to do this assessment. We're working on several of the key species to provide science advice that is also considered indigenous knowledge.

I don't know the specifics of the answer.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

If there is some detail that could come to us later in writing, that would be great.

Ms. Rempel Garner, could you move a little closer to the mic for the translators? Thank you.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'm sorry. I'm blocking the sound.

How many indigenous or first nations persons are directly employed within your directorate?

[Patrice Simon]

I don't know the stats by heart. We have research scientists who are non-indigenous who work on indigenous knowledge. We have scientists and staff who are indigenous who also work on it.

We have just created a new indigenous science division within the science and technology branch that is a group of probably around 10 people. I think all or most of them—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

What percentage would that be of your entire unit?

[Patrice Simon]

Excuse me?

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

It's okay.

I guess I'm also looking at how Environment Canada would incorporate concerns from various first nations and indigenous groups about recovery strategies or the listing of species.

About two years ago, there was push-back from various first nations groups regarding a decision to list the black ash tree under the Species at Risk Act. How is it that a decision to list a species under SARA could get to the point where first nations groups say, “No, it is not”? How did it get this far down the path? At what point...? I will leave it at that.

[Patrice Simon]

The way I see it, there are different processes by which indigenous groups are at the table. When I see indigenous knowledge, it's not consultation. They're building the research and providing the evidence, and that informs a decision. When there's a decision, there's a process for consultation about the decision. I'm not sure if that's clear.

I have Dr. Henri here, who works on several species, including the polar bear, and maybe she can go into some detail.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I think we're looking at the process. I think what happens—and not just with your department—is that often policy happens “to” first nations rather than “with” first nations. I just worry that the current process, especially even looking at recovery strategies for species at risk, perhaps doesn't adequately take into consideration early enough in the process the cultural context of first nations, particularly when it comes to traditional practices and rights like hunting.

Would you say that's an adequate characterization?

[Patrice Simon]

I think I'm more aware of the one that we do on caribou, for example. I'm talking about caribou and polar bears because I do have the expertise on both sides of me.

I think they're involved at the beginning, in the design of research and in the priorities. Often they have a role in the decision-making process as well.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Is that role at a senior level—

[Patrice Simon]

Again, it depends a bit on where—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

—or is it more of a checked-box exercise?

[Patrice Simon]

It depends on where in Canada. Again, if we look in the Arctic, there are co-management boards that have a very important role in the decision-making process.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

However, it's not consistent across the country.

[Patrice Simon]

It's not consistent across Canada. You're right.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay. I think I'll leave it at that. Thank you.