Science and Research Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

As I'm reading this, I'm trying to understand what the intention is here. My understanding is that this motion is asking for an explanation of why a private company is not on a list. I believe the list that is being referred to is for research organizations. It's not actually to include private companies, so I'm struggling to understand what the intention is.

I think the other thing is that there is already a ban on federal funding from Huawei. I guess, just in terms of the intention of the motion, I'm a little bit confused as to why this study would be necessary and how the motion even makes sense.

Maybe members from the Conservative Party, who are clearly looking to grandstand on this, can potentially give us a rationale.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Go ahead, Ms. Rempel Garner.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

That's if they want to. Otherwise, I can keep talking.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

When I looked at the named research organizations list that came out.... First of all, I'll note that the government took a long time to put that list out. It was much longer than it said it was going to take. What ended up happening was that another season of research granting went through.

We've heard in testimony here that there have been partnerships that have happened, ostensibly with organizations that are now on the list. We've not had the minister in front of the committee to testify how this list was developed or what criteria were used.

The other thing, to Mr. Turnbull's comment, is when we think about companies in the Canadian context, under Canadian law, they don't necessarily neatly overlie state-owned enterprises that have direct links with, let's say, a Communist government. That's not what the term “company” means. When we talk about research entities, countries, government organizations and other governmental systems, a company can be a state-run enterprise.

I think it behooves this committee, given that this was a topic of much discussion in many witnesses' testimony over the last year, to understand what the government's rationale was in allowing certain companies to participate—again, “companies” is in air quotes—or not in research funding in Canada.

I think this would provide clarity for Canada's universities. It seems a little vague to me, and I'd love the opportunity to question officials on this matter.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

Mr. Tochor is next.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

We have 12 minutes left to have this vote today, unless we want to cover this up again. This is what I think the Liberals are attempting to do with any inquiry into why Huawei is going to get special access or why we would be partnering with an entity like that, because it's proven to be questionable for our safety and security.

This is pretty straightforward. It's one meeting of two hours with officials to find out why this Beijing-linked organization was not on the list. If we don't vote on this, I think it's pretty clear that this is a Liberal cover-up again. Now it's on science.

I'll end it there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you for that.

We have Ms. Bradford and then Ms. Jaczek on the speaking list.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

With all due respect, I think the reason we don't want to take two hours to bring the minister back is that he dealt with this issue the last time he was here and we have mechanisms in place to make sure that there aren't partnerships with Huawei.

If it's a university partnership, the new regulation list will capture it and prevent it from happening. If it's an industry partnership, the alliance regulations will capture it, so it's basically a moot point.

We haven't approved anything with Huawei since the fall of 2022, so I really don't see the need to take up more committee time, two hours, by bringing the minister back to deal with something that's already been dealt with by other means.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Okay.

Go ahead, Dr. Jaczek.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

In a similar vein, as I understand it, this isn't the only mechanism that we have. As my colleague has said, the minister made it very clear that any decision on Huawei would be made through the alliance program research security regulation. Again, we're trying to wrestle with some of the legislation that is available.

This was flagged back in 2022, so we already have tools to use to ensure that our security is intact.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

The other thing that is important to keep in mind is that the list we're talking about was created by Public Safety Canada. When Public Safety does the work behind the scenes to come up with a list of research organizations, they certainly do their due diligence on that. A ban on Huawei funding research in Canada was already in place, since the government had already made a decision on that. We have a research security framework that I know members are well aware of.

What's interesting to me is that we'd be calling a minister back who wasn't the minister doing the work on creating the list of research organizations. It's kind of interesting that this only focuses on the Minister of Industry, rather than the Minister of Public Safety or both. I think it's a missed opportunity for the Conservatives.

I agree with my colleagues that this seems to be a moot point, because we've been so clear about not allowing research funding from Huawei. Their research organizations seem to include a list of post-secondary institutions, for the most part.

If Mr. Tochor wants to provide some additional clarification, that's fine. If not, I can keep going.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Mr. Tochor is on the speaking list, so we'll go to him next.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

It's telling that you would go this far to protect Huawei. It's very telling that the Liberal Party of Canada will not have a meeting to understand one of the biggest risks we have to our security and communications. You're shutting down that debate. You're shutting down a committee investigating a company that one would have to assume must have the dirt on some Liberals. That's the only reason every Liberal is defending Huawei and refusing to study this question.

This is very telling, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I was going to say that we've run out our speaking list, but we have Ms. Metlege Diab.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you.

With respect, I can't believe I'm hearing Mr. Tochor say what he just said. No member on this side, and I'm sure on the other side, has any intention of protecting the company.

At least three of my colleagues have tried to convey the reasoning for not taking up committee time doing something that is not in its mandate. It is not this minister's mandate. He was not the one who created that list, nor was that department.

We get precious little time to meet in this committee to truly work on, understand, get in witnesses for and do studies on science and research. I find it very.... Whatever the word is, I'm not happy with it. They're trying to waste time with things that are not related to the committee we decided to join in the first place.

As my colleague Ms. Bradford said, we were here from the beginning, as were some of you on the other side. The reason we put our hand up and wanted to be on this historic, original committee was that we truly valued science and research in Canada, in English and French, and felt there was something we could do to contribute to it.

We really don't have a lot of time. The committee doesn't have enough time to plan its work and bring in witnesses who really want to talk about science and research in Canada. I'd like to propose a lot of studies, but the committee has a very limited amount of time.

Political parties have from the beginning taken turns, so when it comes to our side here, there's really no time for us to even put any studies forward. That's where I would like to see our energies and our time spent. We can truly use this time here beneficially and do things on this committee that, frankly, cannot be done in other committees.

There are over 30 standing committees at the House of Commons. Surely there are committees better suited to study some of these other things that keep popping up at this committee that are not within the mandate of the science and research committee and were not part of its mandate when it was created.

Mr. Turnbull, I think you had your hand up.

Oh, you did, Dr. Jaczek? I'm sorry.

I don't want to say a lot more, but once in a while, every x number of months, I really do get passionate about this topic, because I was one of the people who initially, when I got elected, said to my whip that this was the committee I'd like to be on. The reason was to do things that I believe are valuable in the science and research community and that I have not seen done before. This is what I would like us to use our valuable, precious time on here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Dr. Jaczek, go ahead.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I certainly echo what I heard from my colleague Ms. Diab. I'm extremely anxious to get on with the study proposed by Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas, for example. I think it would be an appropriate use of the time of this particular committee.

Furthermore, as we have said, the Government of Canada has made a very firm statement when it comes to Huawei. In fact, I'll quote from a statement made by the Honourable François-Philippe Champagne, Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, on May 19, 2022. That statement reads as follows:

Today, the Government of Canada is ensuring the long term safety of our telecommunications infrastructure. As part of that, the government intends to prohibit the inclusion of Huawei and ZTE products and services in Canada's telecommunications systems.

This follows a thorough review by our independent security agencies and in consultation with our closest allies.

As a result, telecommunications companies that operate in Canada would no longer be permitted to make use of designated equipment or services provided by Huawei and ZTE. As well, companies that already use this equipment installed in their networks would be required to cease its use and remove it. The government intends to implement these measures as part of a broader agenda to promote the security of Canada's telecommunications networks and in consultation with industry.

That's a firm commitment.

To further quote Minister Champagne:

Our government will always protect the safety and security of Canadians and will take any actions necessary to safeguard our critical telecommunications infrastructure.

I think this is crystal clear and I think it's a misuse of the time of this particular committee to proceed in the way that this motion suggests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Okay.

Mr. Turnbull, go ahead, but very briefly, because I have a few comments I'd like to make before we adjourn.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Chair, and thanks to my colleagues for those comments.

I think next in the rotation we have a Bloc study on the U15 and perhaps more equitably distributing funding for research in Canada, which I think will be a great study.

I think that next in our rotation the committee has agreed to have the proposed Arctic research study, which I think is a testament to how this committee functions in a very collaborative, open, thoughtful way.

In terms of this particular motion, perhaps the Conservatives want to have one meeting on this topic as their study in the rotation, but my feeling is that we will have numerous studies before there will be time for an additional Conservative motion.

From my perspective, Chair, this is sort of jumping the gun in terms of wanting to insert a motion in the agenda that's already been agreed upon, with study after study, which I think will account for much of our time for a number of weeks to come.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Okay. We are—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Maybe I'll leave it there, because I notice that you want to jump in, but I do have more to say on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Okay. We have reached our time.

We're meeting on Thursday to provide our analysts with drafting instructions for the study report on indigenous traditional knowledge and science and we'll also be setting a deadline for written briefs on that. We also want to look at the draft report on the pay impacts on Canadian universities. The clerk has circulated a draft report on that.

Also, with regard to the chief science advisor's appearance on Thursday the 27th, I'd like to know from the committee—and maybe on Thursday we can address this—whether we'd like her to be here for one hour or two hours. We can pick up the conversation on that on Thursday.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

That's in camera. We have to be meeting in public for discussion on this motion, though; other than that, it's a cover-up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Okay.

Thank you, committee. We're adjourned.