Science and Research Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Do you feel your advice was reflected in the policy and the banned entities list, as well?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

As I said, we don't audit whether the government follows our advice or not, and there's a reason for that. We don't want this to influence our advice. We don't want to self-censor and only advise on what we think they will follow. I just want to make this clear.

The other thing is this: We're not involved in policy development, other than providing advice on the areas related to science.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

You haven't gone back and looked at the policy to decide whether they've taken your advice or not.

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

As I said, we don't audit what the government does.

If I may, I want to say that research security is a very important and serious issue that goes beyond lists and sensitive technologies. Of course, this is one component, but research security has to be something that happens every day for everything.

It's also the way we conduct research and safeguard data in our labs and research institutions. It's about the support we provide to researchers to help them make sure their data is not being manipulated and so on.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you for that.

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

We have provided advice on that aspect as well.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Considering Huawei's collaborations with Canadian universities and its ties to the Beijing government, what's your view on its absence from the banned entities list?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

Mr. Chair, I honestly think this is a question that should be directed to others, including institutions and governments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That is a policy question, possibly more than—

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

I'm here to provide you with the work we do, not my opinions.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

If you don't want to answer, I understand.

If you have time, your 2021-22 annual report states that “Security should not serve as an excuse for turning inward” and that the “collaboration...has [often] supported peace”.

Is that something you stand by, even though Canadian research collaboration has been used by foreign regimes to enhance their military capabilities?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

I believe that science can be a force for good. I believe in science diplomacy. It doesn't mean that you have to be naive and enter into any collaboration at any price.

I can give a number of examples of fruitful collaborations between adversaries. I believe that as we speak and despite the conflict in the Middle East, the SESAME particle accelerator, for which people from different groups in the Middle East are involved, is still working.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay. Can I just interrupt for a second?

Would you be able to provide the committee, in writing, with the number of times members of the government cabinet have asked your office for advice from the start of 2022 up until now, and the description of the advice they were seeking? Could you provide that to us in written form, please?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

I believe we can do this, to the best of our knowledge, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much for that.

Now we'll go to Mr. Turnbull for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Maybe just before I begin with questions for you, Doctor, I will say that the banned entities list that Mr. Soroka was asking about includes post-secondary institutions. Our government has made it very clear that the ban doesn't apply to companies, but we have given guidance on companies as well and how certain companies should not be funding research.

I will get back to the topic at hand here. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for the work you do. We greatly appreciate it.

I want to ask you a little bit about disinformation.

Recently I read an article, I believe in the Toronto Star, entitled “Study confirms vaccine safety”. I understand that the study was the largest, most comprehensive study on COVID–19 vaccines. We know that 99 million people were vaccinated as part of this study, and that 34 researchers, including Canadian scientists, participated in the study and collaborated on it. Dr. Jeff Kwong was recently quoted in this article saying, “The bottom line message is that COVID vaccines are very safe.” There's a Canada research chair who said, later on in the article, “You don't live your life worrying about being killed by lightning—and you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to have an adverse event.”

I'm very concerned about the resurgence of polio due to vaccine hesitancy and I feel as though the disinformation in this country that's being disseminated, mostly online, is having an impact on people's health and safety. I know this is something you've done a lot of work on, so with your knowledge, could you speak about how we combat that disinformation when the health and safety of Canadians are at stake?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

This is clearly a very important question. I do share the preoccupation about the resurgence of some preventable diseases—not only polio, but chicken pox and others. I think science can help us in understanding vaccine hesitancy, because I don't think you can lump it all.... Not everyone who is hesitant towards vaccines can be lumped into the same bucket.

Of course, the absence of proactive engagement to present the data, to inform the public and to understand their preoccupation leaves a lot of room for disinformation and misinformation. That's something that is very serious, actually. Earlier there was a question about vaccine safety and the vaccine-induced myocarditis, for example. I just want to say that my expert committee during the pandemic actually looked into this. I had a whole bunch of experts—from cardiologists to infectious disease experts—and the data was clear that the chances, the risks, of having myocarditis following infection were 10 to 20 times higher than the ones from vaccination.

It's this kind of information that I think we need to maybe package better for the public, and we need to find ways to inform the public about it in culturally sensitive ways—especially vulnerable populations.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you for that answer. I agree with you that it is about engaging the public and providing information in a way that's consumable by the public and, hopefully, consumable more easily.

I wanted to ask you one other question. Our government, I think, wants to put science and evidence-based research at the heart of the policy-making process. Obviously, you have a key role to play in ensuring that this happens or in helping to advise on that. Can you tell us how we can better work with you and ensure that this idea gets embedded in policy?

My concern is that sometimes science becomes politicized. I think you're doing your best to make sure it doesn't. I want the longevity to be the case—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry, but we're over the time. Possibly we could have something in writing—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Chair, you've been lenient with other people. Can I just ask—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

No. You're 17 seconds over the time.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Seventeen whole seconds....

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Sorry.

We will go to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes, please.