Evidence of meeting #83 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was applied.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
That's great. Thank you.
We have big topics and little time, but thank you very much for getting that in.
Now we'll go to Mr. Lobb.
We'll do four minutes, four minutes, two minutes and two minutes to bring us to the end of the meeting.
Mr. Lobb, you have four minutes.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to all the witnesses for being here today.
Dr. Strickland, Waterloo is not too far from where I live. I live in Huron—Bruce—Bruce County and Huron County.
Professor, Canadian Committee for Science and Technology
Where I have a cottage—
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Yes.
I was wondering what your thoughts are, because you have a lot of experience with this. Is the issue we're talking about today really an issue, in your mind, or not actually an issue?
Professor, Canadian Committee for Science and Technology
What exact issue?
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
The underfunding to the smaller universities: Do you think it's fine the way it is, or should there be a change? Is this committee wasting our time right now?
Professor, Canadian Committee for Science and Technology
All I know is that underfunding is an issue in Canada: It's small and big. There's nobody that's overly funded when it comes to science.
The Canadian scale is way low compared to that of all of our competitors, and not even all of our competitors. Of 32 OECD countries, we're racing to the bottom. We don't want to be at the bottom of 32 countries. I think we can raise all boats by spending more money on R and D.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Okay.
If you look at it, is there a case that we're doing a little bit for everybody and we should focus more on certain areas, or is it a good model that just needs more money?
Professor, Canadian Committee for Science and Technology
That's right. As I said, we're already an egalitarian system. I think the Bouchard report made the point that you can't just look at the big initiatives.
We do need big initiatives. We should be looking at the next pandemic. We have to figure out what the big strategic goals are, but we don't ever know, right? When I was doing my work on lasers, we weren't trying to cut the cornea with that laser. That laser was made to do just pure research, and somebody, 10 years later, thought: “You know what? I can do eye surgery with it.”
We want to do everything. Science has to do as much as we can. I mean, Canada can't do everything. We're only so big, but we don't want to limit what we do. Still, we want to make sure that we also have money going to the strategic areas, and we need to know which strategic things Canada should play a role in.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
With all of your experience through the years, and your expertise.... I think it's impossible, really, to compete with the United States, seeing that it's so close to us. It's next door. It's very easy to go there to study to be a researcher, so should we aspire to try...?
You referenced Princeton. Should we aspire to equal it—maybe not just Princeton, but on average? Is that what we should try to do, or are we making the case that we'll do more funding? Should we consider more funding, plus you get the Canadian experience? What do you think? You've talked to enough experts.
Professor, Canadian Committee for Science and Technology
I think what's so sad for us is that when I was a graduate student and I got my NSERC scholarship in 1981, it was $11,000. That was more than an American made. I could get an apartment for $250 a month and I was getting paid almost $1,000 a month. Look at that and look at what we ask our students to live on now. Money in other countries has gone up with inflation, and we've just sort of hung around.
We've gone off the track. This is all we're really saying. We have to get back on the track. With 40 million people, we're going to do what 320 million Americans can do, but Denmark has, I don't know, only eight million people, and it has these large companies. It's supporting huge research projects at its universities, and it's a very small country compared to us. If Denmark can do it, Canada can do it.
We just have to have the will to do it, and to realize that for every dollar you pay into R and D, five years down the road it's going to give more than double that money back. It's just an investment in the future, and we keep getting better and better when we invest in the future.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
I have a point of order on decorum in those five seconds.
I would just like to say that it shouldn't have taken a Nobel Prize to bring Wikipedia to giving Dr. Strickland a page. I'm just saying.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Thank you.
I don't think that was a point of order, but point taken.
We'll now go to Ms. Bradford for four minutes, please.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all of our witnesses for appearing today and sharing your unique perspectives and experience.
Before I start the questioning, I would like to reiterate that the goal of this study is about maximizing our national research capability and ensuring that all researchers and research institutions are utilizing their research expertise to maximum potential. That's what we need to do. That's what we're hoping to accomplish.
Dr. Strickland, I'm pretty sure this is the first time we have had a Nobel Prize winner before this committee and, I think, many parliamentary committees. Welcome. I'm pleased that you're actually from my area.
Your university, U of W, is located in a very collaborative community. I personally had the opportunity to witness the collaboration of the university in the community first-hand.
In your experience, does the size and location of a post-secondary institution affect its ability to build relationships with its local communities?
Professor, Canadian Committee for Science and Technology
I think it also takes a will. It takes the right mindset to go out.... Don't forget that Waterloo started as an engineering school, so it's a totally different thing. We had the mindset right from the get-go. We had the mindset to be a co-op institution right from the get-go. Of course, then we are always looking for where our students can go, and that should be bringing the industries back to us to help that way.
Also, now the Toronto-Waterloo corridor wants to compete with California. I hope they can. Of course, we have our Communitechs and what have you.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Building on that, how do relationships with community organizations, businesses and other post-secondary institutions help support a post-secondary institution's research goals?
Professor, Canadian Committee for Science and Technology
There are a few ways to go with that.
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say this, but anyway, I met somebody from high up in Apple, and they said, “We take more students from you than anywhere.” Well, if that's the case, they should be coming back to fund us. It has to go back and forth and all around.
Industries now, especially in North America.... The United States is just as worried as we are that foreign students aren't going to keep coming. We have to, as a whole North American continent, try to convince our own young that science and engineering is a thing to go into.
It's going to keep going around and around. The industries need us and we need them.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Yes. There was a reason that Google put its primary plant in Canada and located it very close to the University of Waterloo.
How can the Government of Canada better recognize and reward community partnerships in the research granting process?
Professor, Canadian Committee for Science and Technology
What I would like to see is a better way for industry.... I don't know about the polytech universities, but they may be doing short-term research.
It's very hard. For a while, to get a research grant we had to have an industry partner. I thought, “Are we now supposed to go around begging for this money, not knowing where to go? Where is that in our expertise?”
Again, I would like a different kind of system to get us to work together. Whether it's an institute where everybody comes together under one strategic initiative or something like that, there has to be a better approach to get us to work together.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
In our most recent budget, budget 2024, “Fairness For Every Generation”, there is the proposed creation of a capstone research funding organization that would include the granting councils—the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council and the Canadian Institutes of Health Research—within its structure, as well as a proposal for the creation of a new advisory council on science and innovation.
Do you have any recommendations for how the new funding organization and advisory council could be structured to better support research in post-secondary institutions of all sizes?