Science and Research Committee on May 2nd, 2024

[Ted Hewitt]

We're not quite there, and a lot can happen in the next few years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Perhaps I could jump in: just go through the chair.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay, that work hasn't been done yet.

In a 2024 news article, a Wilfrid Laurier University biochemistry professor stated that “Laurier University's 'Inclusive Excellence' program aimed to hire six black and six indigenous faculty.” Making a long story short, they had a Black applicant apply. No indigenous persons applied. It was for an indigenous person, so the position was essentially let go.

What safeguards has the tri-council put in place to ensure that minority groups aren't pitted against each other in race-based hiring practices?

[Ted Hewitt]

We set the targets. We work with the institutions so that locally they can set the targets for their particular institution and the mechanisms that they would use under the laws of Canada to achieve those targets.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

So, you're really hamstrung by the law right now, and you're saying that the law doesn't really allow for those types of safeguards to be put in place.

[Ted Hewitt]

I'm not sure I understand the question. In terms of safeguards, we're looking to achieve certain objectives with respect to the program. We are operating under the rulings of the Federal Court and the Canadian Human Rights Commission. I think we're talking more in terms of how we're acting proactively to make sure that the representation is in place, as opposed to safeguarding in other respects. At this point—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

That's very helpful.

Mr. Hewitt, the committee recently received notice of the order in council that enabled your reappointment to your role. Were tri-council EDI policies applied to your reappointment?

[Ted Hewitt]

I have no idea. I applied for the position; I received it. That might be a question for those who were responsible for that appointment.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

If the government applied tri-council EDI rules, like the rules your agency uses for funding allocations to you, would you have been reappointed?

[Ted Hewitt]

That would very much depend on who the other candidates were.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay. Do you want to elaborate on that for me?

[Ted Hewitt]

I have no idea who the other candidates were. How would I know? That would be a confidential process.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

So, we don't know if your own agency's EDI targets were applied to your reappointment.

[Ted Hewitt]

I'm appointed through a Governor in Council process; I'm not appointed by the agency. I'm appointed by the Government of Canada through the GIC process. Those would be questions for those who manage that.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you. That was a good discussion.

This is a reminder to address the comments and questions through the chair. It would be helpful so that we don't get into the back-and-forth banter that could happen. It didn't this time.

We go to Arielle Kayabaga, please, for the next six minutes.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I also would like to welcome our witnesses to this committee and thank them for the work they do.

I have a question for Ms. Clifford. In your remarks, you mentioned the smaller, non-traditional institutions that can apply. Can you give an example of what kinds of smaller institutions these are? What's the process? How many have applied and received funding?

I'll follow up with other questions after your answer.

[Dr. Tammy Clifford]

Maybe for the latter part I will follow up with you afterwards with the numbers of those who have applied.

One example would be ITK. I think the members of this committee are familiar with this Inuit organization. They recently applied to be eligible to apply for and hold CIHR funding and were successful in satisfying those requirements.

To give you an idea of what's required—again, this would be for any institution in the country, whether it be big, small, traditional or non-traditional—we require that they are engaged in research, including a knowledge translation mandate, or research training in related activities; that they are based in Canada; and that they submit supporting documentation. It's that supporting documentation that largely speaks to finances. Do they have the support available in the organization to be able to handle and manage the documentation that we do require, like financially audited statements?

These organizations' eligibility is reviewed every five years on the basis of being able to continue satisfying those requirements vis-à-vis the financial reporting.

The institutions also sign an agreement, and in doing so they commit to developing and implementing policies, administrative systems, procedures and controls needed to comply with the requirements of receiving federal funding.

Again, we're open to those, large or small and traditional or non-traditional, and there's a very well-articulated process for those to follow. I'm happy to provide you with the numbers for what that distribution is over time.

They do go on. I should say it's not just an application to be eligible to receive the funding; in fact, researchers affiliated with those institutions have gone on to hold CIHR grants themselves.

Thank you.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you.

I have one last question on that. What are the threshold criteria for them to qualify as non-traditional? You did talk about the funding. I'm curious to know, when they are applying and receiving funding, what demographic you're looking for and how many of them are maybe francophone or other racialized communities.

[Dr. Tammy Clifford]

That's an excellent question. There's no threshold in terms of size, whether it's the number of teaching staff or research staff or the size of the community. In fact, anyone is eligible to apply.

For those demographics, we are able to get them in a breakdown according to whether they are francophone or according to their geographic location across the country. I'm very happy to provide that. The good thing is that we love data. We have a lot of it. I'm very pleased to be able to share to inform this committee's very important study.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Absolutely. If you do have some stuff that you could submit to the committee, I would really appreciate that.

I'm going to go to Mr. Hewitt and return to what my colleague was asking about around the safeguards you have set to protect some of these demographics to make sure that they also receive...and are equally included.

Can you elaborate a little bit on that? I don't think I heard the answer, and I want to see what safeguards are in place to keep the targets your organization has set to make sure there isn't a change in that.

[Ted Hewitt]

Under the requirements of the program, certain targets were set with institutions in accordance with their local circumstances to ensure that positions were filled in proportions that were established under the addendum within the agreement that was set by the Federal Court.

We work with the institutions to develop targets and thereby encourage them to use whatever hiring practices are allowed under the laws of Canada and the provinces to achieve those. It's up to the institutions to find ways to do that.

In some cases, there are no issues. They have open calls. They hire candidates. All of these candidates are approved by the Canada research chairs program on the criterion of excellence once they are nominated by institutions—

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

I'm sorry. Maybe I didn't ask my question in the right way.

I'm trying to understand. In order to keep the continuity of the criteria—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry, but we are out of time.

[Ted Hewitt]

They're monitored over time.