Evidence of meeting #91 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was north.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
The University of Guelph has been spending a lot of time in the Arctic, and what you're doing is great. I also know that Dr. Shoshanah Jacobs has been up there in Cambridge Bay. We've had some work done on mesh technology for Internet connections, something I think you may be working alongside.
Could you talk about how southern solutions could possibly help with some of the new technologies for communications in the north?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
I don't really know much about the mesh technologies. I did work a bit with a researcher you may want to speak with, a colleague of mine that you may know in my department. I'm sorry, but her name is escaping me right now.
Yes, we do a bit of work on communications. I'd say that in the last five years, I've gone from barely even being able to make phone calls with colleagues up there to having Zoom meetings. There has been a tremendous change very quickly. Is it reliable and affordable? No. The strategy that I have adopted in a lot of my work with colleagues is that we actually embed budgets within our research budgets to cover community costs and connecting to Starlink and these types of strategies, which is what's being done right now.
In terms of upcoming technologies, I'm not super-familiar with what's happening in that area.
Her name is Helen Hambly, and she's working a lot on that.
Associate Professor, As an Individual
She's been working a bit with me. We published a paper a few years ago on that topic. She's the expert in that.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
She's done incredible work to get rural Ontario up to speed with broadband, especially locally. I guess her work is reaching farther than I realized.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
As you know, there's a lot of federal money going into broadband and into communication networks. I'm glad to hear that she's also working with you through some of the funds that she's received from the federal government.
The social development piece was also mentioned in our last panel, and how we need to think of more than just the environmental impacts. Can you expand any more on the idea of how we need to look at a more holistic approach to supporting research in the Arctic?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
I actually focus mostly on the human, social and cultural outputs of research as the core of what I do. I look a lot at the various elements of what we call “capacity”, which I'm sure is a word you've heard ad nauseam at this stage. I do try to break down this word “capacity” and what it means in this context.
It's a tough thing to correlate more research with more northern capacity building. It is kind of what I study. Has it evolved substantially? Yes. The problem I'm seeing right now is that the usual suspects, the people who have tremendous capacity, are being burnt out by our southern demands on them.
We need to broaden the number of people who can respond to those demands. That will happen by having institutions up there, as I talked about earlier, like Yukon University. We need to have a university in Iqaluit. It is happening slowly. There are wheels turning there. I think that will change everything.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
We just approved scholarships and fellowships, which actually made their way into the budget—something the Conservatives voted against. Scholarships and fellowships are a big part of improving capacity.
Associate Professor, As an Individual
Do you mean those are for northerners?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
Absolutely.
I think just having that institutional presence is a game-changer. I'd say to look at other territories. I'm speaking mostly about Nunavut right now. I used to work a lot in Yukon. I'd say that in the next few years we're going to see Yukon University playing a central role in northern research, just because it's a degree-granting place. It's drawing in tremendous talent. It's bringing capacity back from the south and northerners back to the north. That is just amazing to see. I really believe in that strategy.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
That's tremendous.
I'm getting close to the end of my time, but I just want to say that getting solutions for the north in the north is going to be a very important step that we make as a government going forward.
Thank you both. I'm sorry I didn't get to you, Ms. Shadian, but I know someone else will want to ask questions to you.
It's back to you, Chair. Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford
Thank you so much, Mr. Longfield.
We will now turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would like to welcome the witnesses who have joined us for the second hour of our study.
My first questions are for Professor Brunet, a Franco-Ontarian who works at the University of Guelph.
Welcome, Dr. Brunet.
Associate Professor, As an Individual
I'm a Quebecker, actually. I'm from Montreal.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
In that case, let's speak French. We can understand each other.
Professor Brunet, I looked at your CV and the various research projects you've worked on. I saw that you did research up north, in Nunavik, to be precise. I'd like to know what you saw there, in terms of the impact the lack of scientific data has in relation to climate change.
At a broad level, what can the federal government do to support the acquisition and collection of climate change data, and a better data structure?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
The mistake we make as scientists is basing our research policies on funding and capacity building in southern Canada. We've talked about that today. We are well aware of how difficult it is for us to develop meaningful strategies in northern Canada, because we tend to apply southern solutions to the north. That's our default. The committee has heard that said a number of times. That's how we approach things.
The purpose of my research is to develop expertise in the study of climate change and to leverage the expertise that already exists in the north, so we can come up with effective strategies. At the last meeting, I believe there was a lot of focus on co-leading the development of strategies. Many of my more recent publications—in the last five or six years, perhaps—focus on the importance of working together. That's especially true of my work in Nunavik. Coming up with solutions and policies that can be applied in a very practical way hinges on the ability to bring together indigenous, northern and other knowledge.
These can be things that certain people don't really understand, so it's important to find ways to put a value on knowledge that would otherwise be disregarded. I think you talked about that with Alain Cuerrier. It's a tough issue to address, but we really have to try to come up with a number system of sorts. We need to do what we can to value northerners and their contribution, and partner with them to identify strategies that work for everyone.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Professor Brunet.
I'm going to come back to the crux of your work. You talked about co-development. The people at the Centre for Northern Studies, based at Université Laval in Quebec City, have 60 years of expertise under their belts. That's nothing to sneeze at. They spoke about the need for co-development.
My next question is much more practical. You talked about the experience and knowledge that indigenous people have in relation to their own land. Let's say those looking through the lens of science and those looking through the lens of indigenous experience don't see the same thing. Which view should take precedence? We are in the policy-making business here, so we need to know who is telling things as they are and who may be saying something else. You're an expert, so how should we handle a situation like that?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
I would say that's a very rare occurrence, because we're usually looking at the same problem in a completely different way. It may seem as though we are saying different things, but I would say that the views are complementary in many cases.
Keep in mind that indigenous knowledge isn't limited to data or information. It's a way of doing things. We need to develop knowledge together, establish professional working relationships and figure out how to do our work as scientists. We can't forget that, because it's a road map of sorts for working together.
Nevertheless, when problems do arise, I think it's necessary to refocus on the governance and the purpose of the project, in order to determine what's important. When that question is put to the team of locals, indigenous people and other stakeholders around the table, they are able to work through it. They break down the differences and, in many cases, realize that the positions aren't as different as previously thought. I can't give you a specific example right now, but I can tell you that situations where this really creates a conflict are rare.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Okay. I see.
You mentioned a sort of road map for working together. The road map that scientists follow is the scientific method, scientific assessment.
As a lawmaker, I need to know whose advice to rely on. When indigenous communities say one thing and the scientific community says another, who should I listen to?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
I would say it depends. It's a great question, one I often wonder about.
Science tends to take a more pulled back view, if you will. I worked in Nunavut alongside people who do polar bear work. I was able to see the differences in perception between those who do polar bear counts by helicopter or airplane, covering vast distances, and local people who observe behavioural changes in the animals, including whether more of them are heading towards cities or fewer. I would say both sides are probably right. It's also important to understand that science and the scientific method of conducting counts—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford
That's our time, Dr. Brunet. You can send additional comments to the clerk, or perhaps we can resume this in the second round.
Liberal