Evidence of meeting #97 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was waste.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Myra Hird  Professor, Queen's University, As an Individual
Ziya Tong  Science Broadcaster, As an Individual
Peter Vinall  President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustane Technologies Inc.
Robert Richardson  Co-Founder and Chief Financial Officer, Sustane Technologies Inc.
Christa Seaman  Vice President, Plastics Division, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
Atul Bali  Chief Executive Officer, Competitive Green Technologies
Amar Mohanty  Professor and Distinguished Research Excellence Chair in Sustainable Materials; Director, Bioproducts Discovery and Development Centre, University of Guelph
Manjusri Misra  Professor and Tier 1 Canada Research Chair in Sustainable Biocomposites, University of Guelph

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 97 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Science and Research.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, and all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of this meeting.

I would like to remind all members of the following points.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking, and all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. Regarding interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French.

Thank you all for your co-operation.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, May 23, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of innovation, science and research in recycling plastics.

It's now my pleasure to welcome, as individuals, Dr. Myra Hird, a professor from Queen's University, and Ziya Tong, a science broadcaster who is appearing by video conference.

Also appearing by video conference, from Sustane Technologies Inc., we have Peter Vinall, president and chief executive officer, and Robert Richardson, co-founder and chief financial officer.

Up to five minutes is given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

Dr. Hird, I invite you to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

I would like to raise a point of order concerning a request I made on June 18 for answers to my written question from our study on the subject before us today.

My question was put to Dany Drouin, the director general of the plastics and waste management directorate at Environment and Climate Change Canada.

Madam Chair, that was three months ago, and we still have not received a response. As you can understand, I am frustrated by having to ask the committee again for an answer to a question I asked a while ago. This is completely unacceptable, in my opinion, and it shows the lack of transparency of this government, which is unable to follow up on a simple matter after three months.

I did not table a motion to that effect today. I am simply reminding the government, through the committee, that we want co‑operation, along with transparency and answers to our questions. I am asking this one simple thing today as we begin our meeting.

I do not want to take up any more time. However, I hope that we will finally get straight answers once and for all to our questions. It's also out of respect for the members of the committee. We take time to do research and prepare. Unfortunately, it is clear that we get no co‑operation from the government when we ask simple questions.

I would ask that you, Madam Chair, and the clerk take measures to get an answer to my simple question. Here is my question.

I just wanted to know who will be managing the mandatory federal plastics registry. It's a simple question. We're looking for a simple answer.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

We'll suspend for a moment.

MP Blanchette-Joncas, that's not a point of order, but I will ask the clerk to follow up on it.

I apologize to our witness. Let me start the timer again for you. We're sorry for that disruption.

Go ahead, please.

Dr. Myra Hird Professor, Queen's University, As an Individual

Thank you very much for this privilege. I'm very honoured to be here.

I have three basic recommendations for this committee.

The first one is that we need to turn off the tap. Canada's plastic problem is only going to be resolved if we produce fewer plastics. As the metaphor goes, if you go into your bathroom and the bathtub is overflowing, you want to turn off the tap. We've spent over 20 years now debating how good the towels are that we're using to mop up the water. We've deliberated on how much money we should be spending on the towels, etc., and “towels” means recycling. We need to stop doing that. We need to reorient at federal, provincial and municipal levels on reducing the production of plastics.

The second thing we need to do is reject the delay, distraction and derailment tactics that the fossil fuel and plastics industries are using to get us to continue to focus on recycling and distract us from the reduction of plastics, which is the only thing that is going to have a significant and meaningful impact on our environment and human health.

The third thing we need to do is lead the world in plastics production reduction. I noticed that just yesterday, the United States indicated they are going to move forward, depending on which government we see in the next election, on real initiatives to reduce plastics production by the plastics and fossil fuel industries. I firmly believe that Canada can absolutely lead the way in plastics reduction through a whole lot of different foci on reduction, reuse and refurbishment, etc. We have plenty of examples in our country and we need to draw on these examples. We need to draw on the plastics ban in the European Union and in countries such as France and Germany. As a leading oil and plastics producer globally, we need to also lead globally in plastics reduction.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

Thank you very much. That was lovely and brief.

We will now turn to our second witness.

Ms. Tong, the floor is yours for an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Ziya Tong Science Broadcaster, As an Individual

Thank you.

Honourable members of the standing committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak today on the topic of innovation, science and research in recycling plastics.

I'd like to begin by asking a crucial question: Can we really solve the plastics crisis with recycling? Based on the research I’ve come across, the answer is a resounding no.

Today, we produce over 400 million tonnes of plastic each year—much of it single use—and only 9% of it gets recycled. This is not sustainable.

Even worse, the recycling process itself is contributing to the problem. A single recycling plant can produce three million pounds of microplastics annually, and that is with filtration. Researchers have estimated that it would be 6.5 million pounds without filtration. Scale that up to every recycling plant in the country worldwide, and you begin to get a sense of the enormity of the problem. These microplastics don't just disappear; they enter the air, our waterways, food systems and eventually our bodies.

Emerging research reveals troubling findings when it comes to the human health impacts of microplastics. They have been found in human organs, such as the brain and heart and even the placenta. A recent study suggests that microplastic levels in brain tissue may be rising, with significant concerns about their link to neurodegenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer's and dementia. Another study on cardiovascular health linked plastic particles in carotid artery plaques to a nearly fivefold increase in patient heart attacks, strokes and even death.

While more research is needed to understand microplastics' long-term effects, it's already clear that high-burden plastic exposure in occupational settings is detrimental to human health, and workers in those fields have elevated rates of breast, lung, brain and bladder cancers.

Studies have also shown threats to waste pickers and workers in plastic recycling plants. Plastics e-waste workers in Thailand were found to have doses of a highly toxic fire retardant in their blood that was 40 times higher than that of workers in a nearby farm. Another study in Kenya looked at eggs harvested near plastic recycling centres and “found that an adult eating a single egg from [such a site] could be exposed to a dose of toxic chemicals that would exceed the EU daily safety limit for more than 250 days.”

Beyond the health risks, our current recycling systems are also inefficient. In mechanical plastic recycling, up to 30% of the material is lost in the process. The sheer variety of plastics and the chemical additives used also make recycling extremely complex, and because the substances are proprietary and because there is a lack of corporate transparency, we often don't know what those toxic chemical cocktails are made of. When it comes to the misnomer of “advanced recycling”, like pyrolysis, it not only fails to solve the problem but also introduces new ones, including higher greenhouse gas emissions and, a key issue of concern, toxic and hazardous by-products. As you likely saw in the headlines yesterday, the State of California is currently suing Exxon for deceiving the public about the merits of mechanical plastic recycling and advanced recycling as legitimate solutions to the crisis.

Given these challenges, we must rethink our approach to the plastic pollution crisis in Canada. In my written brief, I proposed two key solutions that go beyond recycling.

First, promote innovation in home compostable plastics. We should invest in R and D to create alternatives that biodegrade without leaving behind harmful, toxic microplastics. Some Canadian companies are leading the way in producing home compostable plastics from waste materials, but they currently face competition from conventional plastics manufacturers and at times are conflated with problematic bioplastics manufacturers. Supporting the development of home-compostable, non-petroleum-based plastics with R and D and with subsidies could position Canada as a leader in environmental sustainability.

Second, critically, we must encourage a culture of reuse. Rather than relying on a flawed recycling system, we must build a new system that prioritizes reuse over disposability. Here, Canada Post could play a crucial role. With its extensive national network and logistics network, it could be transformed into a hub for distributing reusable, zero-waste goods. It would be like bringing back the milkman, who used to bring refillable glass bottles right to our doors, except scaled up. This would not only reduce waste but also help revitalize Canada Post, which has been struggling in today's competitive delivery market.

In closing, the plastics crisis is not something we can simply recycle our way out of. As there is no panacea, we must take a multi-pronged approach to change our societal habits. With the right investments in home compostable plastics and a shift toward an infrastructure and network for reuse, Canada can lead the way in solving one of the most pressing environmental challenges of our time.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

Thank you for that.

We'll now turn to Mr. Vinall and Mr. Richardson. I invite you, between the two of you, to make a statement of up to five minutes.

Peter Vinall President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustane Technologies Inc.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Madam Chair and honourable members of the committee.

My name is Peter Vinall. I am the president of Sustane Technologies. I'm joined by Robert Richardson, co-founder and chief financial officer. We very much appreciate the opportunity to talk to you today about Sustane and how we're positioned.

I listened to the two previous speakers, and I would say that I'm in 80% agreement: We can reduce consumption, absolutely. There's a lot we can do to reduce consumption. It's a huge problem that we're facing with plastics.

We can also improve recycling. I wouldn't agree 100% with the second speaker on chemical recycling, but I'll get to that in a minute.

We're a Canadian clean-tech company founded in 2014. We're on a mission to really improve waste circularity as much as possible and to have a global impact.

We've heard the number of 9% for actual recycled plastic. That's a number we use as well. We have to change it. Conventional recycling is broken. Millions and millions of tonnes of waste plastic are thrown away in Canada, and many more around the world, ending up in landfills or the environment, threatening the health of our species and our quality of life.

However, certain plastics are critical for use in society for health, agriculture and maintaining our quality of life. Biodegradable alternatives are being developed, but not fast enough. More progress needs to be made on all fronts. That's where our Sustane-able solution comes in.

At Sustane, we're focused on improving waste circularity by repurposing single-use and end-of-life plastics that would otherwise end up in the landfills back into feedstocks for plastics. We're not about burning plastics and we're not about making fuels: We're about making feedstocks and manufacturing new plastics or existing plastics, but from plastics instead of fossil sources. Through our proprietary mechanized process, we can recycle up to 90% of landfill-destined waste back into plastic feedstock and negative-carbon biogenic products, replacing the current high-carbon processes.

To give you a sense of scale, Sustane's plant in Chester, Nova Scotia, can process the waste of 150,000 people, reducing greenhouse gas emissions by over 200,000 tonnes per year. In Nova Scotia, in addition to municipal solid waste and rejected plastic from recycling plants that don't work very well, we process plastics from the federal Department of Fisheries' ghost gear cleanup as well as their end-of-life navigation buoys. We turn that into plastic feedstock of the highest quality, with negligible impact on the environment.

We recently signed an agreement with Wetaskiwin county in Alberta to build a facility there, which will be focused not just on municipal solid waste and end-of-life plastics but also on agricultural plastics waste. We have a memorandum of understanding with Washington state as well and are planning our expansion into the U.S.

Madam Chair and committee members, we believe that industry needs to be responsible in the use of plastics, but the government must also recognize that for many processes, plastics are the only economically viable material in the immediate future. In the longer term, miracles might happen, but right now we're facing a crisis, and we need to do something.

Plastic contamination of our precious oceans is a growing concern. While it's true that here in Canada we have processes to prevent this, we currently allow the exportation of our waste plastic to developing countries that do allow large volumes of our waste plastic to enter the oceans. If we're serious about being a leader in protecting our oceans, which we should be, we should take responsibility for our waste. We now have a made-in-Canada solution for plastics, so the federal government should ban the export of this plastics waste and support developing companies, such as Sustane, that are leading the circular economy with innovations that can be exported.

Thanks again.

I'd like to turn it over to Robert, who is going to talk a bit about our journey as we transition from technology developer to commercialization and about some of the challenges we face.

Thanks, Robert.

Robert Richardson Co-Founder and Chief Financial Officer, Sustane Technologies Inc.

Thank you, Peter.

Good afternoon to you, Madam Chair and honourable members of this committee.

I want to share with the committee Sustane's experience in interacting with the federal government as a Canadian start-up.

It's imperative that we have the research and development work that's being done by companies such as Sustane. Sustane has had direct interaction with SDTC, ISED, the strategic innovation fund, BDC, BDC Capital, ACOA and EDC, to name but a few.

Since COVID-19, there has been a desert of investors for start-ups like Sustane. The recent increase in the inclusion rate for taxable capital gains from 50% to 67% is a disincentive for investors, making it more difficult to raise capital in 2024. Less than 7%—or only $4 million—of the $60 million that Sustane has invested is federal grants or investment tax credits. Fully 73%—or $44 million—is equity and shareholder loans.

Why is there only $4 million in federal grants and tax credits?

When dealing with the federal agencies and funds, we were told that Sustane didn't qualify because it was too early in the process or too late in the process, or too large an investment, and then, ultimately, too small an investment. Generally, we were considered to be too small. I'll give you an example.

Minister Champagne visited Sustane's plant in April 2022 and introduced us to a senior bureaucrat who advised that Sustane needed to offset one million tonnes of greenhouse gas annually to qualify for a 25% capital refund. A Sustane plant—

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

I'm sorry. I've allowed you to go about half a minute over. You might get a chance to expand further in the questions.

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Co-Founder and Chief Financial Officer, Sustane Technologies Inc.

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

Now we will proceed to our first hour of questions.

We'll begin with MP Kitchen for six minutes.

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

Madam Chair, I have a point of clarification.

Are we going for a full hour on this panel and a full hour on the next panel?

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

Yes.

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

Okay. Great.

What time did we start?

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

We started the meeting at 3:50.

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

Okay, so we'll go until 5:50.

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

That's correct. Thank you.

MP Kitchen, the floor is yours.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being with us today, in person and virtually. I greatly appreciate that. I also want to thank them for the presentations they provided us. They helped in some aspects.

Ms. Tong, I got yours only about an hour ago, but I had a chance to read it. It was nice to see that you were able to comment on a lot of what you included within your document.

I'll going to bounce all over the place.

Dr. Hird, I'm going to start with you. In the book you wrote, you talked about four waste hierarchy positions: reduce, reuse, recycle and disposal. A lot of this is what we've heard about the circular pattern when we're talking about plastics and how we deal with them.

My question to you is why you didn't put in re-educate, as in re-educate Canadians. As a professor in environmental studies who educates students at Queen's University, you do that, but that is a huge challenge that we as Canadians need to overcome. To Ms. Tong's point, as Canadians, we could be the leader in dealing with recycling in just one aspect of that circular pattern.

My question to you is on the issue of re-education. Why are we not focusing at least part of that? Instead of there being just those four points, why are there not five?

I see so many Canadians who walk around and throw out plastic. I brought a lid from the soup we get. For those who can see it, it's from downstairs. It says on here it is compostable, which is good and nice to see, but Canadians throw it out. They throw cigarette butts all over the place. They throw garbage and whatever all over the place, and it just scatters. Whether it's a plastic straw.... There's just so much waste.

Why are we not focusing on that re-education?

4:10 p.m.

Professor, Queen's University, As an Individual

Dr. Myra Hird

Thank you very much for that question.

My answer would be that the education we've had thus far about waste, since the fossil fuel industry created the recycling logo back in the 1970s, has been largely funded by the oil and plastic industries. The narrative that we have raised our children on, and that we may have been raised with—I was certainly raised with this—is one whereby it is the consumers' fault and the consumers' responsibility, and if we can just get enough people to sort their waste properly, we will significantly reduce our waste problem.

I have obviously devoted my life to education, so I very strongly believe that at this point in Canada, we don't need more education about technologies and recycling as much as we need education about the producers of plastic. We are not going to solve this problem without reducing the production of plastics. We really want to educate Canadians.

As someone who is lucky enough to get regular invitations to community groups all over Canada, I regularly respond to Canadians' questions. I will say I have seen a real change in the last 10 to 15 years. Canadians are no longer talking about what they need to do to recycle better; they're talking about why the government isn't reining in the fossil fuel and plastic industries. That's the education.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

I appreciate that, and I appreciate the comments. It is not just about educating Canadians. It's about educating industry as well on those aspects.

Mr. Vinall, I appreciate your presentation and the chart you provided to us to look at the different aspects of processing.

You commented on the issue of funding and talked a bit about how.... I see, from an article from the Government of Canada, that the federal government gave money to your organization. You talked about things from a financial point of view.

I'm wondering, for example, about investment tax credits. Are those aspects that you've been in discussion with the government about, in terms of providing avenues whereby the industry takes the first step and invests the money? In so doing, does it then get the tax credit based on how it invests, so it's the business that puts this forward?

I'm wondering about your comments on that.

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustane Technologies Inc.

Peter Vinall

I'll start, and I think Robert would appreciate an opportunity, as well.

We have received some provincial tax credits, which were appreciated. The quantum, of course, can always be larger at the federal level. No, there hasn't been any tax incentive.

Robert, you may want to comment further.

4:15 p.m.

Co-Founder and Chief Financial Officer, Sustane Technologies Inc.

Robert Richardson

Sure.

I was saying—before I ran out of time, apparently—that Mr. Champagne visited our plant in 2022 and indicated we should speak with his office. We spoke with his office. They were looking for the offset of one million tonnes of greenhouse gas. Our plant only does 200,000 tonnes a year. We could do five plants. That would be $240 million. You would get a 25% rebate, or $60 million, in this case.

It's out there, but my point is that you'd need to be a massive company to access most of this.

The Canada Growth Fund was also looking to promote more on the plastic—

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

I'm sorry. Maybe you can save that for another time. I gave you another 30 seconds.

Now we will turn to MP Diab for six minutes.

Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Let me continue with Sustane Technologies.

Welcome.

That's a Nova Scotia company. I'm a Halifax West MP, so I know all the good things you're doing in Nova Scotia as you specialize in turning waste into recycled materials.

Let me ask a question about ACOA, the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency.

I think that recently there was some money from ACOA that allowed you to do certain things. I'm wondering, from a local perspective, what that has allowed. How has that enabled you to work in the Halifax regional municipality and other parts of the province?