Science and Research Committee on Sept. 24th, 2024

[Peter Vinall]

It was fundamental money that enabled us to complete the final stages of our plastic re-forming process to make it very high quality. It was focused on making a high-quality end product that is 100% suitable for plastic production. It was a very successful project. There was $1 million, or $950,000, I believe. There was a 50% contribution from ACOA to do that. It enabled us to receive a long-term contract from a petrochemical group that will feed it into their process to make plastic and replace fossil.

For us, it was a huge step. It validated our quality and enabled us to move forward and get to a long-term offtake arrangement, which we have done.

[Robert Richardson]

Could I add to that?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Richardson.

[Robert Richardson]

That would be great.

When ACOA is funding, they ask that we match it. We would have matched on that $950,000. It's a loan, but it doesn't have any interest, and it's a seven-year payback, so it's a good setup.

There are more generous programs that we're not able to access. I'll give you an example. In 2023, a member of Parliament explained that 60% of the funding for the strategic innovation fund went to one province. The disproportionate funding that happens in the marketplace is a problem for Atlantic Canada. We haven't had a very good audience the number of times we've been in Ottawa looking to access some of the programs there. Often, they're sized for much larger companies. There would be a minimum investment. Most recently, PSP took over management of the Canada Growth Fund. It has a $75-million minimum investment.

I highlight that this is an issue.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I appreciate hearing that. Coming from Atlantic Canada, I understand that quite well.

What recommendations could you make for us that we should be looking at when it comes to Atlantic Canada?

[Robert Richardson]

ACOA is a good example of an organization that's on the ground. It has been there for 25 years, doing a good job, and is aware of what's going on. The typical maximum loan it would give is $3 million, and that number has not been changed for about 20 years.

The reality is that there's been a lot of inflation, especially in these last four years. In order to do the R and D work.... As I noted earlier, we have 73% of the $60 million from shareholders. It's very expensive to do, and it would be nice to have more support from the federal government in our region, for sure.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

That's fabulous. I couldn't agree with you more. I think that's a good point.

Can you tell me about your involvement with other municipalities in Nova Scotia? I think you also touched upon other parts of the country, and even Washington.

[Peter Vinall]

That's a great question.

We have our plant in Chester, which is about an hour outside of Halifax. It's a small community, but it has a landfill. Our goal is to eventually eliminate that landfill. It's a goal that's shared with the municipality. However, that landfill brings in waste from the whole southern part of Nova Scotia and the Annapolis Valley. All of those municipalities are actively engaged with us in the supply of material. We also work with HRM, the Halifax regional municipality. The large recycling plant in Bayer's Lake is one of our feedstocks.

One of the earlier speakers spoke about microplastics. It's true that somewhere around 30%—for a very good recycling plant—has to go to the landfill. It creates microplastic. We take that material and we chemically convert it into feedstock with negligible impact on the environment.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you for that.

Can you speak to your international co-operation with plastic manufacturers to use synthetic naphtha as an alternative to fossil fuel?

[Peter Vinall]

That's another great question.

We find that the Europeans are a bit ahead of us generally in waste management. I would say they're at least five years ahead in terms of processing. We don't agree with incineration, which happens in Europe more and more, separating waste into a biogenic fraction and a plastic fraction, which is what we do. We're not just turning plastic into diesel and naphtha. We do a separation of garbage into a biogenic fraction that we turn into renewable natural gas, which has a far lower carbon footprint and actually a large negative footprint compared to allowing it to decompose in a landfill anaerobically.

Internationally, what we've found is that the Europeans are pulling this material into their system. Right now, we are shipping product to Europe and we're shipping product to the U.S. There are no conversion facilities in Canada that are suitable. We hope that will happen at some point, but right now, our product is going into the U.S. and to Europe.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you.

We'll now turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses who are joining us for today's study.

My first question is for Ms. Tong.

Thank you for being here, for your opening remarks and for the brief you submitted to the committee. I want to hear from you specifically on what you mentioned about using biodegradable plastics as a solution. I would like to compare what you said with what we heard from other witnesses during our last study, particularly the people from Réseau Environnement and Éco Entreprises Québec. They told us that using biodegradable or compostable plastics causes a number of problems in the recycling system.

Specifically, they said that most composting facilities in Quebec and across the country cannot process compostable packaging and that it ends up in the garbage. Even worse, it could enter the recycling system, where it will actually contaminate plastic bales and, later on, post-consumer resins. They also told us that some bioplastics could spend 428 days in a natural environment without breaking down in the least.

They then added that companies were imposing penalties to encourage people to use other materials, as is done for PVC. They also indirectly pointed out that so-called biodegradable plastic is not really biodegradable. We are seeing that more and more small pieces of plastic, or microplastics, are ending up in the environment and in the human body.

I'm trying to understand all this. You're advocating for the use of biodegradable plastics, and they're opposed to it. Is that science-based? What are your sources for using biodegradable plastics as a concrete alternative to address the plastics recycling problem?

[Ziya Tong]

Thank you, honourable member, for your great question.

I want to be clear that I actually made a very clear distinction in my written brief. Industrially compostable bioplastics, which are what you're referencing, and which I completely agree with, are highly problematic. They stay in the environment and degrade into microplastics. What I'm suggesting is that there are other technologies, which leading companies in Canada are developing right now, and they are not only industrially compostable but also home compostable. That means there's a difference. That means they're using waste products, but you don't require an industrial composting facility, which is incredibly rare. It is not available in any of the main cities, actually, in Canada.

With the home compostable bioplastics, what ends up happening is this: Let's say that you're making agricultural mulch, for example, to take care of your vegetables, and let's say that you have a spoon. If you put that in your backyard, it would disappear into water, biomass and CO2 in about 12 weeks. That's a very different technology from what we're talking about with traditional bioplastics.

The problem in Canada is that there's often confusion when we mix these two types of companies together. The people who are actually doing the innovative work are suffering because their work is being conflated with traditional bioplastics. I agree with you, and I agree with the previous witnesses you spoke to, that they are problematic.

I hope that clarifies it, but again, it's written in my brief.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you for your clarifications, Ms. Tong.

From what I understand, this is a new method. To your knowledge, have other countries followed suit and adopted the type of approach you are recommending?

[Ziya Tong]

Absolutely.

I am a science broadcaster, as you know, and I just finished doing a film on this topic. For one of our television programs we are featuring companies—I don't know if you want me to name them by name—here in Canada that are already producing these types of biodegradable, non-petroleum-based, home-compostable plastics. I'm sorry that I have to be so clear about it, because that's exactly what they are.

As somebody who has studied innovation in this area for 17 years, to be specific, and who has looked at the capacities of recycling for a long time, I used to have hope, but I simply do not believe in recycling today because of the issue, again, of hazardous toxins and chemicals. You cannot recycle away the hazardous toxins and chemicals.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Ms. Tong, thank you for your commitment. I look forward to your report.

What I wanted to know is whether other countries have adopted the suggestion you are putting forward today.

[Ziya Tong]

If you are talking about the home-compostable bioplastics again, as far as I know, to be honest, we are leading the way in that. Canada is actually a leading innovator. We have two companies that I am aware of that are leading in this space. However, there are other natural ways to make plastics that are biodegradable and home compostable. Algal bioplastics, for example, is one. The ones that I am aware of, just to be clear, do not require industrial composting facilities.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Ms. Tong, I want to make sure I understand, but I'm a bit confused.

You are talking about a new technology, but what I want to know is whether it has already been used and whether scientific studies show that it is effective.

I'll repeat my question: To your knowledge, as a television reporter, have other countries already implemented this type of system for biodegradable plastic use? You're talking about home composting, not industrial.

[Ziya Tong]

Yes. For example, there's PHA, which is one example, but there's another example. If you think about surgery and sutures, quite often we have plastics in our bodies when we're sewn together, and they biodegrade, and those are absolutely fine. There have been other forms of plastic, but they might be a lot more expensive and not competitive in that manner. The ones that I am aware of are in Canada and are developing waste by-product bioplastics that are non-compostable.

I hope I'm understanding your question correctly.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Ms. Tong, I wanted to know which countries, but, if I understand correctly, you don't know.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you—

[Ziya Tong]

There are other countries. China would be a country that is producing PHA, and there are other countries producing PHA. What I'm actually talking about is not PHA—

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

I'm sorry. Maybe you'll get a chance to make your point with someone else. Thank you.

Welcome to our committee today, MP Blaney. We're happy to have you with us. You have the floor for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

This is a very interesting topic to come and visit and to hear about.

If I could talk with you first, Dr. Hird—through the chair, of course—I heard very clearly from both of the first witnesses that recycling is not working. Only 9% is recycled, and when it's recycled, the outcome is not positive.

From the Government of Canada, what kinds of policies need to be put in place to start addressing this reduction? What do you think needs to happen for us to start to move forward as a country?