Evidence of meeting #99 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Krista Scaldwell  President, Canadian Beverage Association
Jo-Anne St. Godard  Executive Director, Circular Innovation Council
Éric Leclair  Plastic Engineering Director, COALIA
Michelle Saunders  Vice-President, Sustainability, Food, Health & Consumer Products of Canada
Sarika Kumari  Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, BioLabMate Composite Inc.
Sanjay Dubey  Chief Technology Officer and Co-Founder, BioLabMate Composite Inc.

5:20 p.m.

Plastic Engineering Director, COALIA

Éric Leclair

We don't provide a wide range of services in this area, so I'm not sure how to answer your question.

There are many fine examples in Quebec. Soleno, a company that manufactures pipes, drains and culverts, has worked with us to incorporate as much recycled material as possible into its products. The goal is to produce high‑quality products that meet lifespan standards of 75 or 100 years.

We've also worked with sorting facilities to optimize their processes in order to produce higher quality products—

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

That's well over our time, but perhaps another questioner will pursue that line of questioning. It was interesting.

Now we will turn to MP Ashton for six minutes.

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Than you very much.

My first question is for Ms. Saunders, from Food, Health & Consumer Products of Canada.

We have heard a fair bit about the extended producer responsibility, which is a policy approach whereby producers' responsibility for a product is extended to the post-consumer stage. What are the benefits of EPR, and how is EPR being implemented in Canada?

5:20 p.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability, Food, Health & Consumer Products of Canada

Michelle Saunders

Thanks. I'm always happy to talk about EPR. It is what keeps our members awake at night.

It is a policy tool whereby industry across the board assumes responsibility for funding and delivering recycling programs that we call “blue box” in most provinces. We work with provincial governments and producer responsibility organizations.

It really is a way for producers to have control of the system to make sure that we're designing systems and materials that go together and can be collected. We have greater insight when industry is leading EPR versus the old, historical municipal programs that really didn't allow for scale.

One of the things we need to be exploring with EPR is producers having access to their materials once they've been collected, because we have to be recouping for recycled content. We can't just be purchasing on an open market. The demand is significant. We're also very mindful of EPR being introduced in the United States. That will really impact the cost of recycled resins in Canada.

We fully support EPR. We think there are a lot of refinements, but we're really looking to work with provincial governments to better align some of the regulatory provisions in their EPR programs.

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Okay.

Mr. Leclair, can you talk about the challenges surrounding the quality and purpose of plastics recycled over and over again? Where do things stand, and how can we find solutions or ways to address these challenges?

October 1st, 2024 / 5:25 p.m.

Plastic Engineering Director, COALIA

Éric Leclair

Again, the technology and the methods used to recycle materials help to minimize degradation during the transformation or recycling process. We can take action in terms of both the process and the materials. We can use additives to protect the materials and prevent degradation and oxidation, or compatibilizers to minimize the impact of contaminants. There are a number of ways to make high‑quality recycled products.

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Do you have any suggestions for our committee?

5:25 p.m.

Plastic Engineering Director, COALIA

Éric Leclair

We could improve the method for recovering materials. We need to sort out materials, because many polymer families are incompatible with each other. We have no choice but to separate these materials, either at the source or through efficient technological processes. Some Canadian and Quebec companies have developed highly efficient technologies for separating plastics.

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Okay.

I also have a question for BioLabMate.

Could they share more background on the differences between the kinds of plastics that we've heard of, the biodegradable and the compostable, as well as the bioplastics? Could they share some feedback on that front?

5:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, BioLabMate Composite Inc.

Dr. Sarika Kumari

You asked what the kinds of differences are between the plastics and bioplastics that we are seeing here. We usually say that plastics are all fossil fuel-based, like petroleum-based polypropylene and HDPE. What we say about bioplastics...even when people say PLA—polylactic acid—is, yes, a bioplastic, but it takes 20 years to degrade in the soil or it needs industrial composting.

When we say that it is a bioplastic, it should decompose in the soil in a month or three, or it should not require any extras in the industrial set-up to compost it. If it requires an extra composting facility, that means we are putting another burden on the province or maybe the country. If it is home compostable, that is best way—to say that it is a bioplastic that can be home compostable and you can compost them any which way you want. You don't need to recycle them. You don't need to take them to another facility to recycle or compost them.

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Thank you.

I'm not sure if you have perhaps more feedback for our committee on how important it is for the public to be made aware of those differences.

5:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, BioLabMate Composite Inc.

Dr. Sarika Kumari

Yes, definitely.

At BioLabMate, we are mostly talking about the research labs' and the medical facilities' plastic. We need to educate people in that sector particularly, because we don't even know the data on how much plastic has been used in a particular research lab or in a medical facility. We don't even have that data generated—

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

That's your time. Thank you.

We'll now start the second round of questioning for five minutes with MP Kitchen, please.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I appreciate everyone being here today and also your presentations. It's quite helpful that we've heard over the last couple of weeks a lot of very similar information from everybody, especially when we talk. We've learned a lot about bioplastics and where we go between virgin plastic and bioplastic and the steps we need to take.

I find it interesting that the great Paul Harvey once said that self-government does not work without self-discipline. In my previous life, I was the registrar for a profession, and I used to say to my professionals that without self-discipline and self-regulation we're doomed to be falling into the hands of government, and that's a big concern.

You're an industry that wants to regulate itself and should be able to self-sustain as well. We've heard oftentimes throughout these meetings from many people who are coming here and saying, “We want government money.” My question, I guess, to start off with you, Ms. Kumari, is this: What does the profession, the industry, need to do to self-sustain?

5:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, BioLabMate Composite Inc.

Dr. Sarika Kumari

One thing, right now, that we see.... It's educating people. When we use single-use plastic outside of the research lab or medical facility, we're educated. However, when we use it in the research lab or medical facility, we are not educated enough. Should we recycle it? Should we just throw it in the garbage? Should we think about bioplastic? What should we do next? We follow our experiments, and then throw it in the garbage. Then it goes where it needs to go. It's either incinerated or in the garbage. We don't know where it's going.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you.

That leads into my next question.

A lot of what you talked about regarding issues with bioplastics.... We talk about medicine and health care. The average Canadian listening today hears about plastics and goes, “Okay, well, they're going to bioplastics.” However, the reality is that it's not doable. Look at things like syringes, IV lines, intubation tubes, catheters, masks and gloves. They all contain a PFA—polyfluoroalkyl—which is part of virgin plastics.

If, all of a sudden, this government bans PFAS, it's going to have a huge impact. If we go to a bioplastic and get water on it.... We heard from witnesses just last week. The moment it gets water on it, it becomes compostable, all of a sudden. How do you use that in an IV line you're running a fluid through? How do you do that via a syringe or an intubation tube?

I'd like to get your comments on that, if I could.

Sanjay Dubey Chief Technology Officer and Co-Founder, BioLabMate Composite Inc.

The first thing we should understand is that we need data. Bioplastics have not been especially used in the research lab or medical facility. We do not have good data.

Sarika and I talked to different labs. We stood around talking to lab managers, seeking data on what kind of plastic they're using, where they are using it and whether they're using it with lifelines—for example, human biocells and such things, which cannot be recycled. Is it just used for experimentation and thrown into the garbage, or can it also be recycled and used?

The thing is that the data is not there, exactly. It's difficult for us to make any judgment on that part. If we have the data, we can come out and say, “Okay, we can replace this kind of plastic.” Sarika and I always say that a biolab should never target replacing everything in the medical sector. However, there are some high quantities that can be replaced with other practices.

We have to know what data is out there, and we always—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you.

Mr. Leclair, further to that conversation, you mentioned you have labs and have been working with industry and universities. I'm wondering whether you have ever sat in a situation where the university has asked you things along those lines, when they're talking about medical plastics, etc.

5:30 p.m.

Plastic Engineering Director, COALIA

Éric Leclair

We haven't done many projects in the medical field. We've done some projects in industrial sectors, including projects where we had to find replacement materials that didn't contain perfluoroalkyl and polyfluoroalkyl substances. However, these replacement materials weren't biopolymers.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Okay. Thank you.

I think I'm running out of time.

Quickly, to the other witness, you mentioned in your report the nine golden rules that are out there. I'm wondering if you can comment about who set this up, and whether you could even provide in writing, to the committee, the nine golden rules and what organizations were involved in that.

5:30 p.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability, Food, Health & Consumer Products of Canada

Michelle Saunders

We'd certainly be happy to provide that in writing as a follow-up to this presentation.

The nine golden design rules were established by the Consumer Goods Forum, which is a global organization representing grocery manufacturers and retailers. They are adopted across Canada by—

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

Could you please submit that? We're quite over now.

5:35 p.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability, Food, Health & Consumer Products of Canada

Michelle Saunders

Certainly, we will.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford

Thank you.

Now we will turn to MP Diab for five minutes.

Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Welcome to our witnesses.

As an Atlantic Canadian on the panel, I'm going to turn, first of all, to the doctors from Newfoundland. Welcome to our committee.

I read your mandate. It says, “We are on a mission to eradicate the single use of plastic from research labs and medical facilities!” That is the concentration of what you were talking about, particularly in Newfoundland and the Atlantic provinces. I believe that's what I read.

Dr. Dubey, you were talking about not having enough data. How do we get you data, or how do you get data? How does that happen? Who else do you work with, whether it's in Atlantic Canada or anywhere else, in the research you're doing?