Evidence of meeting #10 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amr.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry for interrupting. The time is up for you, MP Rana.
We will now proceed to MP Blanchette-Joncas.
Please go ahead. You will have six minutes.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to welcome the witnesses joining us today.
Dr. Haraoui, you made the connection between contemporary wars and the spread of bio-resistant organisms to Canada. Migratory movements resulting from such conflicts, be it soldiers, workers—
Liberal
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I'll start over.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Please go ahead. Start from the top.
Can you start again, MP Blanchette-Joncas?
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair, for showing respect by carefully listening to your colleagues during this important committee meeting.
Dr. Haraoui, you made the connection between contemporary wars and the spread of bio-resistant organisms to Canada. Migratory movements resulting from such conflicts, be it soldiers, humanitarian workers or asylum seekers, foster the spread of these bacteria.
Since Quebec is a place that receives the highest number of asylum speakers per capita in the country, does that actually put it at the forefront of antimicrobial resistance in Canada?
Associate Professor, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
You're correct in saying there could be a connection between population movements and the spread of resistant bacteria. When discussing this subject, we want to avoid stigmatizing populations or minimizing complications associated with population movements. These are often vulnerable populations with good reasons for coming here.
That said, there are already protocols in place, certainly in Quebec, and across Canada. For example, when people are hospitalized, a sample is taken to see if they carry resistant bacteria in order to reduce the spread.
Above all, my comments were intended to counterbalance those expressed by Professor Wright, for example, whom I salute. He's an eminent researcher, and we greatly appreciate his contributions.
The development of antibiotics seeks to address a problem. What I was also trying to express in my comments is that prevention is possible. The best way to prevent the increase in antibiotic resistance is to first recognize the factors that contribute to it and, second, to intervene.
For example, a few years ago, I took part in a project funded by the Grand Challenges Canada organization. We implemented a telemicrobiology program to support labs in northern Syria, in armed conflict zones. That allowed individuals who received virtual training to detect resistant bacteria and subsequently treat people.
The problem in all these conflict zones and regions where people earn low and precarious incomes is that diagnostic capabilities are extremely limited. We want, then, to increase surveillance among populations most affected by conflicts, such as those living in conflict zones, and among populations that wind up in other countries due to immigration and seeking asylum.
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Dr. Haraoui, for sharing these experiences.
You said Canada should show leadership in the field of antimicrobial resistance. The president of Innovative Medicines Canada, who recently testified before committee, acknowledged that it hadn't shown any whatsoever. We know that Canada cut its R and D investments in recent years and that it was the only G7 country to do so for a sustained period, lasting 20 years.
Is this really surprising, given the chronic underfunding of R and D in Canada?
Associate Professor, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
Indeed, research in Canada is significantly underfunded. Professor Wright expressed this very well. Proposals for support cruelly fail to take into account certain stages of research development.
The purpose of our interventions, including mine, is to emphasize the importance of demonstrating leadership in this regard. We know that Canada has done so in the past. As Mr. Outterson mentioned, this isn't an issue that can be addressed by a single country or by certain organizations alone. It requires international coordination.
Unfortunately, this leadership is sometimes lacking, and we want to encourage governments and institutions to seize this opportunity to remedy this situation and take advantage of the current momentum to accelerate these international collaborations and respond to the pressing need for research.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you.
Professor Wright, you mentioned there was a gap, particularly at the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, because these institutes haven't established a committee for antimicrobial resistance research.
I'd like you to enlighten me about that inconsistency.
Today, the Minister of Industry, who is responsible for the three granting agencies, announced funding. According to her, “[t]hrough this support, Canadian researchers continue to lead globally in groundbreaking innovations to maintain competitiveness in a rapidly evolving research landscape.”
You're telling me that there's a shortfall, while the minister says we're global leaders. You also talked about a brain drain.
What's the reality on the ground? The government seems to be saying the complete opposite.
Professor, Michael G. DeGroote Institute for Infectious Disease Research, McMaster University, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
The short answer is certainly that in certain parts of research, we are world-leading. In fact, I would argue that the labs around the country that do work on antibiotic resistance are lean, mean fighting machines that are internationally competitive. It's just a small community. My point here is that we need to be able to make sure we have the resources specifically for this area, which I think we could all agree—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry for interrupting, Dr. Wright. The time is up. You can quickly wind up in four or five seconds if you want to.
Professor, Michael G. DeGroote Institute for Infectious Disease Research, McMaster University, As an Individual
Yes. It's a good question. I think it's really just a matter of density, in this case, of individuals.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you.
We will now proceed to MP Mahal for five minutes.
Please go ahead.
Conservative
Jagsharan Singh Mahal Conservative Edmonton Southeast, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to all the panellists and all the witnesses who spared the time and came to this important testimony.
I would start with you, Dr. Wright. You stated in your testimony that AMR is the next existential threat to Canada and to the world.
We have seen mismanagement during COVID and in other times, when the money was spent on things that were not necessarily helping out Canadians in the way they should have helped.
Do you think Health Canada is doing enough to get medication approved for AMR and for antimicrobial-resistant drugs? Also, how fast is it? Is it fast enough, or are there delays?
Professor, Michael G. DeGroote Institute for Infectious Disease Research, McMaster University, As an Individual
I think the evidence speaks for itself. Of the 15 new antibiotic entities that have been brought to market over the last 10 years, we have access to only three. That's not a great ratio.
There are a number of reasons for that. For one of them, I think we have to remember that Canada is a very small market for these drug companies. The barriers to entry for bringing an antibiotic that has received approval by the FDA, say, or the EMA, for example, into Health Canada involve some bureaucracy. That bureaucracy, I think, has to be measured against the potential market size in Canada and the distribution across this great, vast country. That is part of the issue that's being faced.
Of course, what we want to do is ensure that all the barriers to getting these medicines to Canadians are reasonably removed, so that we're not artificially stacking the cards against ourselves.
Conservative
Jagsharan Singh Mahal Conservative Edmonton Southeast, AB
Thank you for the answer.
Everybody talks about the difficulties that you as developers, as scientists, face when it comes to federal funding, when it comes to bureaucracy and when it comes to red tape. That has been the case for the last 10 years when it comes to making funds available for this vital research. Do you believe that enough of our federal dollars are being pushed to CIHR for AMR-related drugs in that context?
Professor, Michael G. DeGroote Institute for Infectious Disease Research, McMaster University, As an Individual
The short answer is no. We need to do more. If we want to be competitive—if we want to pull our weight, as Dr. Outterson said, on an international stage—we have to invest more.
Conservative
Jagsharan Singh Mahal Conservative Edmonton Southeast, AB
Thank you.
How can we compare Canada's federal funding on AMR and for those bacterial researchers to support them in the face of a real crisis, God forbid, which can come at any time, at any point, as we're talking about...? How critical do you think Canada is, if we have to draw a comparison with other jurisdictions?
Professor, Michael G. DeGroote Institute for Infectious Disease Research, McMaster University, As an Individual
Certainly, most other G7 countries fund research as a percentage of GDP much better than Canada does. I don't have the numbers at my fingertips to be able to tell you what percentage goes to AMR research in all these different countries, but there are a lot more AMR researchers outside of Canada than inside Canada. I can tell you that.
Conservative
Jagsharan Singh Mahal Conservative Edmonton Southeast, AB
Thank you so much.
During your testimony, in answer to the question of one of my colleagues, you shared the pain a young Canadian scientist would face if they did not.... As the system is right now, the funding and red tape are so tough. The approval and getting to market are nearly impossible. You say that they would likely find other markets to explore.
How do you feel about that, when you train those scientists and they are not able to serve Canadians, in the place where they have taken their education and received their funding? How do you want to reply to that concern you shared?
Professor, Michael G. DeGroote Institute for Infectious Disease Research, McMaster University, As an Individual
That's the reason I'm testifying today. It's because one of my major roles, as I indicated, is to train the scientists of the future. I would love to see them having successful careers here in Canada, and I would love to see them continuing the work in this field that we've trained them in.
They're doing outstanding work as they're being trained, and we are internationally competitive, especially in the labs at McMaster, but it is heartbreaking to see that talent migrate to other places.
Professor, Michael G. DeGroote Institute for Infectious Disease Research, McMaster University, As an Individual
Yes, I'm done. Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you.
We will now proceed to MP Jaczek for five minutes, please.
Go ahead.