Science and Research Committee on Nov. 5th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 14 of the Standing Committee on Science and Research.

Before we begin, I would like to talk about an issue that is really very important and urgent for all the members. You must have received emails from researchers expressing their concerns about the orders for the production of documents of October 1 and 20.

Mr. Noormohamed, I will come to you. Let me finish this.

The committee's email box has received more than 125 emails from different researchers expressing their concerns about confidentiality. Notably, one letter included somewhere around 3,000 signatures. Because of the number of signatures, it will take some time to translate so that we can get it to all the members.

As chair of this committee, my office has received well over 200 emails from academics in research across Canada who have raised serious concerns about the privacy implications of the production order and its potential impact on research.

As your chair, I bring this to your attention for your information and consideration.

MP Noormohamed.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Chair, there has been discussion among some of us about this issue. There are two considerations here. One, how do we assure the research community that they can focus on what they're doing, which is research, and not have to advocate for what seems obvious?

The bigger conversation, the other conversation we've been having, is the cost implication, really, of disaggregated data in this way.

In my inquiry to you, Madam Chair, you have informed me that the bill in order to do this would be $4 million.

I don't want to waste a lot of time with our witnesses here, but I do want to make sure that we deal with this issue in as expeditious a form as possible, recognizing that there may be other solutions to getting to the right answer.

I note that the $4 million is just to disaggregate the aggregated data. On top of that, there would be translation costs. It's essential for all of us that everything is available in the two official languages.

Even if we set the translation costs aside for just a moment, we would be spending $4 million to get our hands on millions and millions of pages of data which, frankly, I don't know that anybody in this room will be able to go through themselves, not even knowing when that might arrive. Will it arrive in this Parliament or the next? It's hard to know.

I think we have an obligation to be pragmatic in what we do. Later on, I intend to put forward a motion that contemplates the notion that we should move to aggregated and anonymized data so that we can get to the same outcome that we need. I hope it addresses what Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas was trying to achieve. I think we would probably be able to agree on this so that we can get to the right outcome.

I want to leave it at that for now. If we have agreement to deal with this in a meaningful way, then we won't take time away from the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

MP Baldinelli.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON]

Madam Chair, in response to my colleague, I look forward to studying the motion, and him putting that forward, and looking at it. I'm quite supportive of the ideals he puts forward. No one on our side is looking to spend $4 million.

Also, from our side, from the Bloc motion, our intent is not to get personal information on individuals who are applying for—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'll just clarify that this cost estimate is from the department.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON]

Yes.

I look forward to dealing with this when we do committee business and having this resolved.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

MP Jaczek, and then Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas, I will go to you.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Of course, I have the greatest respect for our witnesses and the time that might be taken up, but I'm wondering why my colleague is not anxious to just move this motion right now so that we can clear up this particular issue and hear his motion. I would prefer to hear it right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I have two people on the list. I have MP Blanchette-Joncas and MP McKelvie. Then we will go to MP Noormohamed.

[Jennifer McKelvie, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I'll let him speak for me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Okay.

We will go to MP Blanchette-Joncas and then MP Noormohamed.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I understand the importance of this. I obviously wanted to share my thoughts and, of course, my comments and my opinion about the current situation.

First of all, I must admit that I find it a bit odd that you are disrupting the schedule and agenda. Committee business was already scheduled from 6 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. I understand that you consider this to be urgent, but it doesn't seem like the usual thing to do in committee. We have witnesses online who are obviously ready to take part in our study today.

I would like to address the scientific community, which is listening attentively to us today.

As a member of the Standing Committee on Science and Research, it is my duty and responsibility to ensure that federal science policies are administered with consistency, transparency and ethical rigour.

I understand and share the concerns expressed by a number of members of the scientific community following the motion I put forward to the committee. Remember that my motion was adopted unanimously. Let me remind you of its intent. It's not about judging projects or exposing researchers, but understanding, based on data—

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

MP Noormohamed.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Chair, just so we're clear, there were issues and votes that occurred in camera. To disclose those is a problem that we need to address post-haste.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Yes. In camera items cannot be discussed as we are in public.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Madam Chair, I would just like to share my comments and, of course, my reaction to what you are discussing today.

Let's not forget that my motion was adopted unanimously. Let me remind you of its intent. It's not about judging projects or exposing researchers, but understanding, based on data, whether the federal funding system—

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

MP Noormohamed, on a point of order.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Chair, again, matters that were discussed in camera are now being discussed in public.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

MP Blanchette-Joncas, we cannot discuss anything related to committee business here in public.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

Can you explain to me why you started the study today with this item when we had already scheduled a time on the agenda for committee business?

Can you enlighten me on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, MP Blanchette-Joncas.

For the information of all members, and to clarify that, this is a very important and urgent issue. It is about the reputation of this committee. We have received correspondence. We have received messages. I have personally met with some members of universities who raised this concern with me. I was at one of the receptions by one of the tri-councils. The president raised it. This is a very important and urgent issue. That's why I am dealing with it now.

If you want to challenge me, you can challenge me, but I feel that as the chair of this committee, it's really important to bring that to the attention of all the members.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Madam Chair, you feel this is important, but I think it's important to speak out and explain to the scientific community the purpose of the motion, which, once again, has been adopted.

Either censure me or let me speak. It's up to you. Right now, you've done something completely inconsistent with what you are trying to do.

Either we talk about it at 6:00 p.m., and I'll be happy to ask that it be public so that people can hear us, or you cut me off and tell me that I'm off topic for something that you yourself initiated at the beginning of the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

MP Noormohamed, you wanted to say something.