Evidence of meeting #15 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was companies.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you.
We will now proceed to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes. Please go ahead.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Hello to the witnesses joining us today.
My first question is for Mr. Hannigan.
In the “Canada strong” budget 2025, the government says it wants to make Canada a leader in innovation. Yet it does not provide any additional funding to the three granting agencies, even though the grants to the young researchers who are with us today have been frozen for 20 years. That means that the grants are now 40% below the real cost of living.
As a university professor, do you think we can say that Canada is strong in innovation while young researchers are being left behind financially?
Associate Professor, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It's important to distinguish between the tri-council funding that's going to basic science and the tri-council funding that's going to social science. With regard to basic science, we're actually doing quite well. With regard to social science.... My study I'm presenting here today was funded by SSHRC. I look at this as being an example of an early warning study of what is going wrong. We need to pay attention to both. We need to balance both.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Mr. Hannigan, I think you misunderstood my question. I would like you to provide your answer in writing if necessary.
The “Canada strong” budget allocates $1.2 billion to attract foreign researchers. On the other hand, it does not provide anything to improve conditions for students, doctoral students, postdocs and young professors.
As a professor, wouldn't you say that this strategy sends the message that Canada gives more funding to the talent it hopes to recruit as opposed to the people it is already training at its own institutions?
Associate Professor, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I apologize. This is not working.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Yes, Madam Chair, I think the interpretation is not working, once again. This is nothing new.
Liberal
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Madam Chair, I would like you to restart the clock because I don't think the witness understood my questions.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Science is important. It means a lot to me, as you know, so I have some good questions for this witness.
Mr. Hannigan, in the “Canada strong” budget tabled on November 4, the government says it wants to make Canada a global leader in innovation. Yet there is no additional funding in the budget for the three granting agencies, even though the grants awarded to young researchers have been frozen for 20 years. This freeze has finally ended, but the latest budget does still not provide any indexing of those grants, meaning that their value is still 40% below the real cost of living.
As a professor who is part of the research ecosystem, how can we really talk about Canada as a leader in innovation when young researchers are being left behind financially?
Associate Professor, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That's a really good question.
Associate Professor, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I celebrate this budget and its attempts to try to strategically bring top researchers here, but I also recognize that we cannot leave our young researchers behind. I do fear that we are not keeping up with inflation with respect to funding our young researchers, and this is a problem.
I don't have a firm solution for this, but I will say that, in innovation terms, we can't just have stars. We also need to have complementary resources that unlock the value of those stars.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
I think a number of people did not celebrate when they saw the last budget, including the students who are here today and who train the next generation of scientists.
The “Canada strong” budget allocates $1.2 billion to attract foreign researchers, but does absolutely nothing to improve conditions for students, doctoral students, postdocs and even young professors.
In your opinion, doesn't that strategy send the message that Canada provides more funding to the talent it hopes to attract as opposed to the people it is already training at its own institutions?
Associate Professor, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I understand that university funding occurs at multiple levels. I think provincial funding is important as well. This is not just a federal concern. This is a concern that Canadian governments at multiple levels of jurisdiction have to attend to.
My comments today, regarding building our ecosystems to be more robust, are about continuing our funding and about our strengths for research, basic science and the inputs to this whole system. However, they're also thinking about linking this to ecosystems that can deal with what happens when students graduate.
What we want to avoid are zombie companies that are just going from grant to grant. We actually want to build them up. However, we cannot shift our attention only to the ecosystem spin-out and lose the engine that's driving this whole thing. I want to appreciate the strengths of our university system and point to what we can do in addition to this.
I think your comments pointing to this new budget are interesting because, yes, it would be great to have star researchers come here. However, if we don't have complementary assets to help them, then are we really going to unlock the value that they bring?
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
I have some more questions for you, Mr. Hannigan, about the ecosystem you are part of.
According to data from the Ottawa Science Policy Network, close to two thirds of graduate students say it is likely or very likely that they will leave Canada after graduation, and less than half of new graduates intend to stay in Canada.
Might the new budget not accelerate the brain drain by underfunding the next generation and focusing on international recruitment?
Associate Professor, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
In regard to the draining of the foreign students we train here, this is a potential problem. I was in the U.K. previous to my experience in Alberta, and Oxford had the same problem when I was there.
This also speaks to the need to have a coordinated, strategic approach to thinking about an ecosystem. What happens after we graduate our students? They incubate companies inside universities. That's great, but where do they find their first customer? How do they then build that up? How can we get them to stick around, given that we've effectively invested in them?
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Attracting foreign researchers requires equipment, laboratories, graduate students and technical personnel. As it is, our universities do not have the means to provide real support to the next generation. Grants have been frozen for 20 years, meaning that they are still below the cost of living. Investments in research and development have been cut in the past 20 years. Moreover, Canada is the only G7 country to have done so. This is not very inspiring.
Does Canada really have the capacity to welcome international researchers without placing those who are already here in greater jeopardy?
Associate Professor, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That's a good question. It's a little bit outside of the scope of my expertise, but I will say that we absolutely need to maintain the strengths of our existing system. We cannot let it fall by the wayside.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Mr. Hannigan, I know this is not your area of expertise, but let's look at the big picture. The facts are undeniable: study grants were frozen for 20 years and are below the cost of living; the last budget did not provide any additional funding to the granting agencies that fund research; and two thirds of graduate students say they are prepared to leave Canada after graduation.
Isn't there a risk that Canada will provide better funding to the researchers it wants to attract than to those who are trained in Canada but don't see a future here after completing their studies in Canada or in Quebec?
Associate Professor, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Again, this is a bit outside of my expertise, but what I will say is that there is a strategic imperative to try to bring more money into the system in general. I think the legitimacy that star researchers can bring will actually be quite helpful for private sector investments.
