Evidence of meeting #2 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was criteria.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology, Harvard University, As an Individual
I don't want to single out one of the parties, because many of these policies, at least in the United States, have taken place under the leadership of both parties.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
It does have an effect of imposing a political view onto researchers.
Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology, Harvard University, As an Individual
In general.... One can imagine certain circumscribed exceptions. If there is research, for example, in anthropology, culture or history on a particular group, then common sense might say that sometimes a member of that group could add specialized expertise, but in the cases you mentioned—astronomy, cancer research, climate change and so on—then, indeed, the sex and race should not make a difference.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
You brought up things like social sciences and the humanities, which could benefit from a diversity of viewpoints. Why do you think the Liberals are so concerned about people's skin colour and gender, but have absolutely no consideration for people's differing views when it comes to the humanities and social sciences?
Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology, Harvard University, As an Individual
Again, I think it goes beyond just the Liberal Party of Canada. It applies to many western countries and many political parties.
Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology, Harvard University, As an Individual
I think it's a problem, yes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
MP Ho, your time is up.
We will now proceed to MP Rana for five minutes.
Liberal
Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
It's an honour to be a part of this committee, as I've been a student of science throughout my life. After doing my master's in civil engineering at Toronto Metropolitan University, I applied for my Ph.D. as well, but I couldn't make it due to some time constraints.
My question is for Professor Gita Ljubicic. She's a professor at McMaster University, which is next to my riding.
I'm pleased to see the work you have been doing in the faculty of science. I'm curious to know whether you, based on your experience with the braiding project, have faced more or fewer issues regarding the funding for research around indigenous knowledge.
Professor, McMaster University, As an Individual
Can you repeat the end of that question, please?
Liberal
Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON
Have you faced more or fewer issues regarding funding for research around indigenous knowledge?
Professor, McMaster University, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
As I mentioned, there have been a lot of changes over the past decade or so in tri-council policies that increasingly recognize the value of indigenous knowledge, encourage indigenous leadership in research and encourage partnerships. There's actually more and more funding available for indigenous scholars and partnerships with indigenous communities. The challenge that I was trying to highlight, though, is how to effectively assess whether those partnerships are respectful, whether they are upholding indigenous leadership and whether they enable indigenous scholars to access those funds.
A lot of the comments that were discussed around EDI are also really important in the context of indigenous and other community-engaged research in terms of how it's evaluated, so that researchers are not just ticking boxes to be able to apply for these particular sources of funding but are actually following through on what they say, and you can actually track partnerships and respectful, culturally appropriate methodologies in how they write their methods, in who their team is and in how they allocate their budgets. This is a big factor.
Yes, I think there's more support for and recognition of indigenous research, but that's where I think some of the qualitative assessments are really important, to differentiate between those who get really good at writing proposals in a certain way and those who are actually implementing meaningful, respectful approaches to research.
Liberal
Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON
[Technical difficulty—Editor] of isotopes for cancer treatment around the globe. Thank you.
My next question is for Professor Shariff.
You argue for more transparency and clarity about the objectives of diversity through your work. As you just mentioned in your testimony.... I would appreciate if you could expand more on DEI. Importantly, during your time in academia and higher education, have you seen any shifts toward greater diversity, equity and inclusion? Are you anxious that we are shifting backwards, Professor Shariff?
Professor, The University of British Columbia, As an Individual
I have seen a shift over my career. I've been a professor for 15 or 16 years. EDI has become more of a criterion that's been used to evaluate candidates, applicants for funding and students. All of that has increased. The conversation became pleasantly more nuanced about a year ago, and then, when President Trump came to power for the second time, it became much more heated again.
I have concerns about how it is used now in Canada. Some of the chilling effects that Dr. Pinker referred to are an issue, especially in the social sciences. In addition to perhaps excluding certain scientists from different perspectives, it also has the chilling effect of making certain questions too risky, or perceived as too risky, to pursue funding for. There are questions that I'm able to study only because I have considerable leeway in the research funds that were allocated to me through the Canada 150 research chairs program, which I don't think I would apply for dedicated funding to—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Shariff, but your time is up.
We will now proceed to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My question is for Professor Pinker.
Harvard University recently eliminated its office of equity, diversity and inclusion, as well as its diversity-related recruitment criteria. What impact did that have? How might those reforms influence the funding policies of Canada's granting agencies?
Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology, Harvard University, As an Individual
Applicants for grants will have to waste less time on showing how their research will benefit minorities. The simple bureaucratic requirements for satisfying DEI requirement regulations are a considerable imposition, especially on smaller universities that don't have a huge infrastructure. It's likely that it could attract, ironically, a broader talent pool of people who no longer fear that, simply because they are a white male or they have political opinions that are not on the left, they are excluded from academia. Of course, in the United States, all this has to be taken in the context of the rather destructive slashing of research budgets and some of the onerous requirements that the Trump administration is applying. The United States at present is a chaotic and complex situation.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Professor Pinker.
Professor Shariff, I listened to one of your speeches at a conference on April 6, 2024, in Kelowna. You mentioned that you did your Ph.D. at the University of British Columbia. You say that researchers who are selected based on their gender or skin colour may feel bad or feel judged by their colleagues, because both they and their colleagues know that they weren't appointed or selected solely for their experience or knowledge.
Could you expand on that?
Professor, The University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Could I get a little clarification on the question?
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
You said at a conference in Kelowna on April 6, 2024, that people appointed on the basis of their gender or skin colour could feel bad, or judged by their colleagues, because neither they nor their colleagues feel that they were chosen for their experience or knowledge.
I'd like you to elaborate on what you said at that conference.
Professor, The University of British Columbia, As an Individual
The point I was trying to make there—and this is in my own case, as well—is that I recognize that my race had an influence on my being hired. What that means is that I recognize that I was hired for different criteria than the rest of my colleagues were. I also know that they know that. When you have a field such as ours, where you're surrounded by a lot of smart people, there is a degree of imposter syndrome.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Madam Chair, would it be possible to ask the witness to provide a written response to that question, please?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
If you could provide a written answer to the question and send it to the clerk of the committee, that would be great. We will circulate it to the members.
Now, we will end this session at 12:10 p.m. because we had nine minutes of interruption due to technical issues.
We'll have one minute of questions from Ms. DeRidder, and one minute from MP McKelvie. Then we will end this panel and go to the second panel.
Ms. DeRidder, you have one minute.