Evidence of meeting #20 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cohere.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I call the meeting to order.
MP Baldinelli has tabled a motion, so we will have to deal with that motion before we can proceed further.
Is there any debate?
Go ahead, MP McKelvie.
Liberal
Jennifer McKelvie Liberal Ajax, ON
I am worried that we're not going to get the witnesses here on time. I'm also mindful that we want to do drafting instructions before the holidays so the analysts can prepare their work and so we can get the feedback we've heard from the witnesses who have appeared in front of us, as well as from the minister, into the record. Then we can start to draft some instructions so we can inform very important policy on AI in our country.
I have a lot of concerns about this motion and trying to ram this in at the expense of drafting instructions. It would be really nice to complete the report before the holidays and to see that happen.
I think we've heard some really great feedback, in particular today from the minister about the engagement he's been doing with Canadians and the 28 researchers. Additionally, many different companies have appeared before the committee over the last few weeks that were great.
We also have the opportunity to follow up with these witnesses through written questions. I know some of them will be submitting additional written feedback.
I'm not sure we want to ram this in at the expense of drafting instructions and of losing the meeting where we can plan out what we're going to do next for artificial intelligence and get our amazing analysts working. I'm really concerned by that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
MP Baldinelli is in line, but I just want to clarify that after today's meeting, we are left with two meetings. That's just so all members know. On Monday, December 8, we will continue our current study on AI. That's the plan.
Have those witnesses been scheduled?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
The notice of meeting has been published. We have the witnesses.
This Wednesday, as it will be our last meeting before the holidays, I was planning to give drafting instructions to the analysts for the draft reports on the impact of the criteria for awarding federal funding on research excellence in Canada and on AMR, so that during the winter break, the analysts can work. Once we come back, we can have the reports so we can report them back to the House. That's what the plan was.
Go ahead, MP Baldinelli.
Conservative
Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to my colleague for her comments.
There's no intention to ram this through. That's why I have not placed a date here for their appearance. If the clerk is able to schedule them in the new year, I would be fine with that happening.
I understand that the chair and the analysts have prepared the summary of evidence for two studies. These are studies we did a long time ago. I would suggest—and I agree—that we get to the summary of evidence meetings and have them on Wednesday. When we return in the new year, we can have a meeting when we can get....
My only hope is that we get all the witnesses who were supposed to be here on December 1 together again on a subsequent date that we can schedule. I'm not looking to rush anything. Again, we could do that in the new year. We can stay with the chair's schedule of the hearings on Monday, and then we can do the summary of evidence for two reports on the Wednesday.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you, MP Baldinelli.
Before I go to the next MPs on the list, I just want to clarify that in order to get earlier witnesses, it took some time to schedule. Really, we cannot push them to come next week. Everyone is busy. We should keep that in mind.
I have MP Rana, MP Deschênes-Thériault and then MP Hogan.
Liberal
Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON
As my colleague mentioned, six of our witnesses are already in line and everybody has to come for their witnesses. We don't have enough time. Also, the minister is busy right now with the G7. I would definitely ask you to keep this for next month, in February.
Liberal
Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'm also wondering about the motion.
I wasn't here, since I'm a new member of the committee. However, I know that a number of witnesses have already appeared and shared their expertise. We're waiting for a report. It would be a good idea to start drafting this report over the holidays so that we can submit recommendations to the House.
Developing an ecosystem conducive to artificial intelligence is a topical issue. Canada already presents itself as a world leader in artificial intelligence, and it is. Through the investments we're making, we will be able to further develop research and our infrastructure. This is happening now, not in six months or a year. We're reviewing the pan-Canadian artificial intelligence strategy now. We're investing in our infrastructure and our supercomputers now. We're thinking about ways to give even better support to artificial intelligence research now. I think this committee's recommendations will be very relevant in helping us develop our strategy and ensure that investments actually meet the sector's needs.
I'm concerned, then, about a motion that would delay the tabling of our recommendations in the House of Commons.
Artificial intelligence is already profoundly transforming our social relationships, the economy and the way we deliver public services. It will have impacts on education, health, culture and a whole variety of sectors. It's important to understand those impacts.
Witnesses have appeared and shared their views on the various consequences across a multitude of sectors. Why wouldn't we want our colleagues in the House of Commons to benefit from that as quickly as possible? I'm genuinely concerned about this.
We're investing nearly $1 billion in budget 2025 to support Canadian artificial intelligence, on top of everything that has been done before.
I like to point out that Canada was one of the first countries in the world to implement and fund an artificial intelligence strategy. That was done in 2017. Indeed, we invested $125 million in 2017, then $144 million in 2021. This strategy had a number of goals, including attracting and retaining world-renowned artificial intelligence researchers. This is still relevant because, in budget 2025, we're investing more than $1.7 billion to attract world-renowned talent to our various universities in Canada. I hope those investments will enable us to see talent in the artificial intelligence field.
Canada already has world-renowned talent at a number of its universities. Some of them came to testify. These are people who know the sector and who make our country proud. We will soon be implementing an international recruitment strategy to attract talent.
Given the investments we're making, and knowing that recruitment has been one of the pillars of our artificial intelligence strategy since 2017, I think the recommendations will be relevant. We can't afford to delay the publication of our work on this topic.
In our various strategies for the investments made between 2017 and 2021, we talked about supporting national artificial intelligence institutes and promoting the commercialization and adoption of artificial intelligence in all sectors, whether it be the education sector, the manufacturing sector, the cultural sector or the economic sector.
I'll digress for a moment. Our 2025 budget aims to build Canada strong, and that requires a strong economy. Since day one, our government has been working to strengthen the Canadian economy and make it more resilient.
It's important to understand that artificial intelligence is a factor we have to take into account in our efforts, because it's transforming our economy and certain sectors, such as the manufacturing sector. It's going to change the world of work. The government's efforts to strengthen the Canadian economy have to consider the impact of artificial intelligence. The pan-Canadian artificial intelligence strategy will definitely address such challenges.
I look forward to seeing the recommendations, because we don't operate in a vacuum. We have to look at the various work we're doing on artificial intelligence. It helps strengthen our economy. As I mentioned before, this is happening now.
A motion like that of our colleague can be well founded, but, as I said, it's complicated to invite witnesses on short notice. They may not appear until after the holidays.
We don't know when these testimonies will be heard after the holidays. We will then have to consider these testimonies and take the time to draft a report. This will cause further delays, which we want to avoid.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry for interrupting, but if I could have a second, it seems that with the list, this debate will continue.
Do I have the consent of members to allow the witnesses to leave? I don't want their time to be wasted.
Conservative
Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON
This is a rather innocuous and easy motion to adopt. I'm baffled by why my colleagues are delaying such a motion.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
This debate is going to continue. MP Deschênes-Thériault has the floor. I just wanted to ask that for the witnesses, but there is no consent.
Go ahead, MP Deschênes-Thériault.
Liberal
Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you, Chair.
I am sorry. I apologize to the witnesses. I would have liked to hear more of their testimonies, but a motion that could delay the publication of our work has been proposed. I am sure they understand the importance of Canada's AI strategy, and they understand how important it is to inform the House of recommendations from experts and people familiar with the field. Since we are basing our recommendations on their comments on the subject, I am sure they understand the importance of making these recommendations sooner rather than later. They will forgive me, but we cannot keep asking them questions at the moment.
It should be noted that, in addition to funds allocated specifically to artificial intelligence, our government also funds AI research through grants and agencies, including the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, the Canada First Research Excellence Fund, or various other targeted federal science programs.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
I don't mind, but my colleague is wasting the time we have with two deputy ministers. I would just like to remind my colleagues how much these people earn.
We are debating a motion concerning keeping people—
Liberal
Bloc
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Mr. Deschênes-Thériault has the floor. He's speaking to the motion that has been brought up by MP Baldinelli. We have our debate, and we have to continue until the debate collapses.
Go ahead, MP Deschênes-Thériault.
Liberal
Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you.
It wasn't a member of our party who moved the motion. I wanted to hear what the deputy ministers had to say. I was eager to hear their answers to the questions. I myself had other questions to ask. My colleagues had prepared several as well, and I am sure my colleagues in the opposition had some too. It would have been interesting to hear them, but unfortunately one of our colleagues decided to move a motion during this debate. It was obvious that there would be a debate after the motion was moved. When there is a motion, we, as democratically elected officials, can comment on it.
I would like to come back to the motion. This motion would delay the completion of our work on the study of artificial intelligence. I am currently trying to present the various points of view.
Why is it important for our recommendations be tabled in the House of Commons sooner rather than later? The recommendations we make will inform the direction our government takes on various issues in allocating the investments outlined in the federal budget. I want us to truly understand the potential implications of voting in favour of the motion, so I am making this connection.
I was talking about all research investments in Canada. These investments can also have an impact on artificial intelligence. I believe that the recommendations we make will be of interest to our research institutes and the various departments involved. We need to consider the recommendations we are going to make and ensure that they are truly tailored to meet our needs in terms of AI.
Last year, in 2024, the government launched the Canadian Sovereign AI Compute Strategy and invested $2 billion in strategic infrastructure investments to ensure that Canadian innovators, businesses, and researchers have the computing capacity they need. This is very important because, if we want to remain a world leader in artificial intelligence, we must ensure that we have the necessary infrastructure. I raised this issue during my discussion with the minister. It is about infrastructure for high connectivity, high-level protection systems to safeguard data, and the infrastructure needed for collaboration.
Budget 2025 sets out these investments to ensure that we have the necessary infrastructure to remain a global leader in AI. I am confident that the recommendations in the study will contribute—
Conservative
Kelly DeRidder Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
On a point of order, I don't know how current research funding in the budget has anything to do with this question.
Conservative
Kelly DeRidder Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
He's not on topic. My point of order is relevant. Current research funding has nothing to do with this motion. He's talking about—