Evidence of meeting #3 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was excellence.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
We will now proceed to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.
You will have six minutes for your round of questions. Please begin.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses who are joining us for the first hour of the meeting.
My question is for Professor Yuan Yi Zhu.
In your opinion, how much do personal characteristic criteria unrelated to scientific quality influence academic excellence?
Assistant Professor of International Relations and International Law, Leiden University, As an Individual
I'll try to respond in French.
Personally, I don't think that personal characteristics have anything to do with excellence. Excellence in research has nothing to do with personal characteristics such as gender or race. I'm not a better or worse researcher because I'm Chinese, male or heterosexual. That has nothing to do with it. Frankly, it's a discriminatory and racist idea that produces absurd results.
For example, last year, in 2024, the University of British Columbia announced the federal government's establishment of a Canada research chair in research on oral cancer, meaning cancer of the mouth. Candidates had to be people with disabilities, Indigenous people, racialized people, women or people from sexual minority identity groups. I find it frankly absurd to say that a white man can't conduct research on oral cancer. It's irrelevant. Moreover, this type of thing undermines public confidence in research in Canada.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
A number of witnesses pointed out that the equity, diversity and inclusion, or EDI, forms required for federal government funding applications can add to the paperwork. Some researchers even use artificial intelligence to complete them.
In your opinion, how do these requirements affect scientific research and the work of researchers?
Assistant Professor of International Relations and International Law, Leiden University, As an Individual
In 2012, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, or CIHR, conducted a study that showed that researchers spent an average of 22 days writing a single grant application to the CIHR. I said “22 days,” not “22 hours.” They spend a month on the process, which is a month of wasted time. This study was conducted in 2012, before the entry into force of the requirements to adhere and commit to EDI values. We can only imagine how long the process takes now.
It's a waste of time for everyone. Researchers want to conduct research, but they need to fill out the short form on equity, diversity and inclusion. This hinders research and wastes the money of Canadian taxpayers, who want researchers to conduct research rather than spend their time filling out forms related to woke ideology.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
In the United States, the Supreme Court recently ruled that certain admissions policies based on equity, diversity and inclusion were unlawful.
What lessons can be learned from this debate with regard to the funding and organization of research in Canada?
Assistant Professor of International Relations and International Law, Leiden University, As an Individual
The United States and Canada have two distinct systems. In the United States, according to the Supreme Court, positive discrimination is illegal under the Bill of Rights. In Canada, according to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, positive discrimination for the purpose of improvement is legal. However, legal doesn't necessarily mean good.
I think that most Canadians don't want a system that allocates funding on this basis. In the United States, affirmative action for university admissions has been banned. The world hasn't stopped turning. American universities are still excellent and they still recruit talent from around the world. It hasn't changed anything. In fact, it has made American universities better.
I think that Canada should consider following the American example. It's a good example to follow. Canadians aren't that different from Americans. We're an open people. We want people judged based on their merits, not their personal characteristics.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
In your opinion, do equity, diversity and inclusion policies affect researchers' academic freedom and ability to explore certain topics independently?
Assistant Professor of International Relations and International Law, Leiden University, As an Individual
Absolutely. I have many colleagues who self‑censor or who don't talk about certain topics. If they do talk about certain topics, they must do so discreetly. I have colleagues who lost their jobs because their political views were unpopular. Researchers whose political or ideological views don't align with the majority engage in self‑censorship on a persistent and daily basis.
We live in a free country. When I publish an article, I shouldn't have to worry about whether my colleagues will punish me or whether my job will be affected. Yet that's the reality in Canada. This absolutely undermines academic freedom in Canada.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Given the global competition to attract top talent, do these requirements strengthen or weaken Canada's appeal to foreign researchers? Of course, I should point out that I'm still talking about the criteria of equity, diversity and inclusion mandated by the federal government.
Assistant Professor of International Relations and International Law, Leiden University, As an Individual
After completing my bachelor's degree, I pursued my scientific career in Europe, in the United Kingdom and in the Netherlands. I must say that Canada has unfortunately gained a reputation for being an overly woke country. It isn't just my right‑wing colleagues who say this. Even my progressive colleagues sometimes tell me that Canada is a beautiful country, but that they don't want to work there because its universities are a bit over the top.
I think that it absolutely has a negative impact on attracting talent. Researchers want to conduct research. They don't want to have to comply with equity, diversity and inclusion policies, even if they're progressive‑minded. If they're told that they must meet these criteria in Canada, they won't be attracted to the country.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you.
With that, the first round comes to an end. We will start our second round of five minutes with Mr. Ho.
Mr. Ho, please begin. You have five minutes.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My first questions are for Professor Freeman.
You mentioned a lack of diversity in political viewpoints in universities. I think there was a study showing that 88% of college faculty are left-leaning, versus the rest being right-leaning, and there's a clear imbalance. I just want to get your perspective on how that plays out in your world and in your experience as a faculty member and as a student, and understand how the Liberal government has let us get to this stage.
Associate Professor, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
There are lots of different studies—not as many on Canada, but lots on the U.S.—and it does vary based on discipline. Luckily, I'm in economics, and yes, there's maybe a 4:1 liberal-to-conservative ratio, but lots of people are in the centre or centre left, and people are pretty tolerant. I have good relations within my own department.
How does it work at a university? Instead of just focusing on the left-to-right ratio, think about the ratio of people who are on the far left and would self-identify as such—and I'm not talking about a liberal voter, but people who are on the far left—relative to people who are on the right or centre right. There are far more people on the far left than there are—
Conservative
Associate Professor, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
The buzzwords you'd hear are “Marxist scholarship” or “critical race theory”. People would use those as examples of activist forms of scholarship that tend to be associated with far-left politics.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
Wouldn't you agree that for the funding that comes from the government, from tax dollars, you would expect a balanced, apolitical view of things? It's just not happening at university faculties. Would you agree that there's a total imbalance? You would think there should be strings attached to the money too. Isn't that right?
Associate Professor, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
I don't know about having strings attached. It's really hard to predict the results of research in advance, so I don't know how you want to think about strings attached. That's very tricky. However, I would say that, yes, there is a political imbalance in faculty—that's almost beyond dispute—and it's most extreme in disciplines that aren't positivist and are more subject to researcher biases, in interpretive social sciences and humanities.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
You mentioned October 7 and the anti-Semitism that we've seen all across the country that Jewish faculty and students have had to experience. Could you tell me a bit about your experience?
Associate Professor, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Yes. I wrote a brief on that for the House justice committee study. Seeing people politicizing the university and trying to pass an anti-Israel motion at my union was very disheartening.
Associate Professor, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Also, seeing students speaking up for Palestine and faculty aligning with them, joining groups like Faculty for Palestine or Students for Justice in Palestine, which are in bed with Samidoun and Hamas and are clearly linked.... Faculty from my university were at the UBC anti-Israel encampment with members from Samidoun.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
Would you say that your voice is now suppressed, that you feel less safe as a result of this and that maybe you can't exercise your full academic freedom as a result of this?
