Evidence of meeting #32 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was china.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Kingston  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association
Burton  Senior Fellow, Sinopsis, As an Individual
Adams  President & Chief Executive Officer, Global Automakers of Canada
McKinnon  Interim Chief Executive Officer, Accelerate: Canada's ZEV Supply Chain Alliance
Breton  President and Chief Executive Officer, Electric Mobility Canada
Kabbara  Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 32 of the Standing Committee on Science and Research. We are meeting today to resume our study on the implications of the Canada-China preliminary joint agreement on Canada's electric vehicle sector.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and all members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation—floor, English or French. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I would like to welcome our first panel.

We have Dr. Charles Burton, senior fellow, Sinopsis. He is joining us by video conference. We are also joined by Brian Kingston, president and chief executive officer, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association. Our third witness, in person, is David Adams, president and chief executive officer, Global Automakers of Canada.

Welcome to all of you, and thanks a lot for appearing before the committee.

Witnesses will have five minutes for their opening remarks. Then we will go to our rounds of questioning. We will begin with Dr. Burton.

Please go ahead. You will have five minutes.

Wait one second, Mr. Burton. We can't hear you.

We will go to Mr. Kingston while the technicians figure out why we can't hear Mr. Burton.

Mr. Kingston, please go ahead. You will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Brian Kingston President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association

Thank you.

Madam Chair, committee members, thank you for the invitation to appear today as part of the committee study on the Canada-China preliminary joint arrangement on Canada's electric vehicle sector.

The Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association, CVMA, is the industry association representing Canada's leading manufacturers of light and heavy-duty motor vehicles. Our membership includes Ford, General Motors and Stellantis.

CVMA members have been operating in Canada for over 100 years. They're responsible for most of the auto production in this country, having built over 100 million vehicles since 1945. Today, CVMA members are the largest employers, investors and innovators in the auto manufacturing sector in Canada.

Ford, General Motors and Stellantis are leading the transformation to electrification. General Motors and Ford are the top EV sellers in Canada, while Stellantis is the only manufacturer building PHEVs and EVs in this country.

The CVMA is concerned with the Canada-China agreement that reversed the China surtax order and allows 49,000 Chinese vehicles into the market. That's equivalent to 30% of the total number of EVs sold in Canada last year, a significant number.

The agreement has the potential to undermine Canada's auto sector and presents risks to the future of the integrated North American auto supply chain for the following four reasons.

Number one is the level playing field. China does not adhere to many of the rules-based trade and investment principles that have been fundamental to the success of the auto industry and the Canadian economy. China's state-directed industrial policy provided over $230 billion U.S. in subsidies between 2009 and 2023. Today, domestic EV manufacturing capacity exceeds demand by three times, with the surplus product exported and in many instances dumped in markets abroad. China's vehicle exports have grown from one million units in 2020 to six million in 2024 and are on track to achieve nine million by 2030.

Chinese manufacturers have a cost advantage due to weak or non-existent labour rights that have suppressed wages and artificially lowered the cost of production. According to an analysis by Reuters, the estimated hourly wage paid at 30 Chinese auto companies is between 14 yuan—that's about $1.93 U.S.—and 31 yuan, which is about $4.50 U.S. In comparison, CVMA members are unionized, with production assemblers paid an average hourly wage of $44.52 Canadian plus generous pensions and benefits.

Number two is security risks. In 2024, Canada committed to banning Chinese-connected vehicle software and hardware to protect Canadian drivers from foreign actors manipulating these technologies. The Canada-China agreement is incompatible with this commitment. Clarity is needed on the federal government's position on the risks posed by Chinese-connected vehicles to Canadian drivers.

Number three is the interaction with EV mandates. The federal government announced three months ago that the EV mandate would be repealed. In September of last year, the federal government announced that the 2026 model year targets would be paused. Despite these announcements, nothing has happened. The mandate remains in place today. Under the EV mandate, Chinese OEMs could earn up to $980 million per year selling compliance credits. This is an incomprehensible outcome at a time when manufacturers are already under significant pressure from U.S. tariffs.

Finally, there is the importance of U.S. alignment. The CVMA strongly supported the federal government's China surtax order that levied a 100% tariff on Chinese manufactured EVs, because we must align ourselves with the U.S. approach to China. We cannot be out of step with our largest trading partner on China as we approach a very sensitive time with respect to the review of our CUSMA agreement. There is simply too much at stake for the auto industry and the broader Canadian economy if we are perceived by Washington as being out of step and misaligned on how to deal with China.

Thank you for the opportunity to address your committee. I look forward to answering any questions that you may have.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, Mr. Kingston.

We will now go back to Mr. Burton.

Mr. Burton, please go ahead. You will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Charles Burton Senior Fellow, Sinopsis, As an Individual

Thank you, Madam Chair.

There are profound scientific, research and national security implications to the Canadian government's recent concession allowing heavily subsidized Chinese electric vehicles into our market. In September 2024, I testified before the Commons international trade committee that Chinese EVs represent a critical security threat to Canada. The previous month, the U.S. national security adviser at the time, Jake Sullivan, speaking in Nova Scotia, urged Canada to exclude Chinese EVs from North America, citing “issues associated with data security, with critical infrastructure, and with the underlying questions of national security”.

Extensive research by Britain's Royal United Services Institute, the Australian Strategic Policy Institute and numerous allied government agencies has produced emphatic warnings. These vehicles are effectively spy machines on wheels. Their integrated cameras, sensors and GPS systems can easily camouflage sophisticated spyware and malware.

For example, in 2019 the United States moved the Transit Infrastructure Vehicle Security Act to ban the purchase of China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation subway cars because of technology in the cars that could allow for data harvesting, secret recording of conversations, surveillance of individuals and sabotage of critical U.S. transportation infrastructure. It was found that the opening and closing of railcar doors could be manipulated from Nanjing in China.

In late 2025, the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence issued a formal directive banning staff and troops from discussing sensitive information while inside Chinese-manufactured electric vehicles, citing credible fears of data harvesting via built-in cellular connections.

Canada previously recognized these risks by banning Huawei and ZTE from our 5G networks in 2022 to prevent Chinese regime infiltration of our telecommunications networks and by terminating a 2020 contract with the Chinese state firm Nuctech, known as the Huawei of airport security, for embassy X-ray scanners. We were going to put that equipment in 170 embassies and consulates.

Fundamentally, China does not have private sector commercial enterprises as we understand them. Chinese corporations are legally obligated to support state intelligence apparatuses. The regime can compel manufacturers to embed spyware into their vehicles and leverage massive state subsidies to flood western markets with EVs at prices below production costs. They sell these vehicles cheaply, because the primary return on investment for China's integrated regime is geostrategic, not financial.

In August 2024, the Government of Canada announced a 100% surtax on Chinese EVs, which was to “help level the playing field for Canadian industry and workers”. However, I argued then, and still believe now, that Canada should have implemented an outright ban of Chinese EVs on security grounds, as we did with Huawei, ZTE and Nuctech. Utilizing prohibitive tariffs to keep Chinese EVs out of Canada instead of a security-based ban inevitably invites diplomatic complications.

Shiny, affordable and high-tech, a cutting-edge $30,000 Chinese BYD with superior battery technology is undeniably attractive to Canadian car buyers when compared with the pricier Canadian-produced competition. Consequently, I predict intense public pressure on the government to go beyond the 49,000 figure to allow in as many Chinese EVs as necessary to satisfy Canadian consumer demand.

The darker concern is how these EVs, governed by sophisticated software that can be manipulated remotely from China through updates, might be weaponized for destabilization. We must consider a scenario, for example, where cities and transportation arteries are suddenly paralyzed by legions of immobilized Chinese vehicles. Chinese EVs pose a security threat to Canada—maybe not today or tomorrow but certainly when the time is right. For example, when China goes to war with the U.S. or our allies—

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Burton. Could you quickly wind up, please?

3:40 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Sinopsis, As an Individual

Charles Burton

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the excellent interpreters of the committee.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, Mr. Burton.

Now we will go to Mr. Adams for five minutes.

Mr. Adams, please go ahead. The floor is yours.

David Adams President & Chief Executive Officer, Global Automakers of Canada

Madam Chair and committee members, thank you very much for the opportunity to appear before the committee today, on behalf of the 15 members of the Global Automakers of Canada, to discuss the important topic of Chinese electric vehicle entry into the Canadian marketplace.

For context, GAC member companies employ 110,500 people in Canadian dealerships, vehicle assembly plants, national and regional offices, captive finance companies, and transportation and logistics facilities. The activities of GAC member companies support an additional 107,000 jobs across the country and contribute more than $24.9 billion annually to the Canadian GDP. These activities generate more than $10.6 billion in government revenue annually.

At the outset, it's important to underscore that all auto distributors in Canada are importers. While five companies manufacture in Canada, the vast majority of their production—85% to 90%—is destined for the U.S. market. Most of the vehicles sold in Canada come from somewhere else. The U.S. supplies 18.3% of the vehicles GAC members sell here. Mexico supplies almost 24%. Vehicles from elsewhere around the globe come in at 43.4%. Canadian manufacturers, through Honda and Toyota, supply almost 15% of the vehicles sold here.

This reality underscores the importance of having a fair, transparent and rules-based environment for any new entrants—Chinese or otherwise—looking to distribute vehicles in Canada, in order to ensure a competitive marketplace for all. Some of the measures contributing to a fair, transparent and rules-based environment include adherence to Canadian motor vehicle safety standards and Canadian emissions standards; supporting consumers by ensuring that sold vehicles can be repaired and serviced at a physical service location; mandatory participation in industry MOUs—principally with Transport Canada—that existing vehicle manufacturers abide by as a means of achieving regulatory outcomes through alternative mechanisms; and mandatory participation in a myriad of industry programs and dispute resolution processes.

Committee members will recall that the 100% tariff on EVs, including conventional hybrids, battery electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids, came into effect on October 1, 2024, via an order in council referencing section 53 of the customs tariff in order to address unfair trade practices that adversely impact the trade of Canadian goods and services. The RIAS supporting the OIC at the time indicated concern that “China's non-market support for its electric vehicle (EV) sector could lead to an exponential surge of imports that could adversely affect the transformation and planned investments in Canada's vehicle sector.”

It is also worth noting, as others have mentioned, that Canada has not yet established any regulation similar to the information and connected technology and services for connected vehicles regulation that was implemented last year in the United States. This regulation bans vehicle connectivity systems and advanced driving system technologies linked to foreign adversaries, with a software ban coming into place for model year 2027 and hardware bans being implemented for model year 2029 and model year 2030. This would seem to be another area Canada should explore further to ensure that personal information and privacy, as well as cybersecurity and national security, can be safeguarded.

The announcement in mid-January of the government's intention to allow 49,000 EVs into the Canadian marketplace, a quota that will increase each year, seems to discount the initial rationale for imposing the tariff in the first place. It also represents an initial irritant, as others have commented on, to the U.S. administration at a time when we are heading into a sensitive first review of the USMCA. While the quota represents a small portion of overall Canadian sales, as Brian mentioned, it represents 30% of EV sales.

It remains unclear whether this action will achieve the policy goal of providing Canadians with more affordable EVs and encouraging joint-venture production of vehicles in Canada, which would presumably be reviewed under the Investment Canada Act. Clearly, the greatest value added for Canada would arise from utilizing the Canadian supply chain for parts and components, as well as Canadian labour. All issues are linked in the automotive industry, and this decision has ramifications for environmental policy, trade policy, industrial policy and national security.

From the perspective of the members of the Global Automakers of Canada, it is important that Canada establish the appropriate guardrails now with respect to any new entrants coming to Canada in order to ensure a level playing field for competition and for the privacy and security of consumers purchasing their vehicles.

Thank you. I look forward to answering your questions.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, Mr. Adams.

With that, we will begin our first round of questioning with six minutes each.

We will start with MP Baldinelli for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.

I'm going to begin with you, Mr. Kingston.

Last week, you were quoted in the National Post, calling it “a massive risk” to allow Chinese EVs access to Canada's market. You also said, “Canada's auto industry depends on our integration with North America and the U.S. specifically, that's been the foundation of the sector, going all the way back to the auto pact.”

Is it a mistake for Canada's Liberal government to be veering the country off course from this foundation?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association

Brian Kingston

Yes, it's a major mistake.

My colleague Mr. Adams referenced the fact that approximately 90% of Canadian automotive production is destined for the United States. That is how the sector has been designed, that is how it has worked and that is why we've been so successful building the industry that we have. By taking a different approach to China, we put that integrated supply chain at risk.

I've just come back from a week in D.C., and every conversation started and ended with China and a question for me about why Canada has taken the actions it has. It is a significant risk, and it's an unforced error at a very sensitive time.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

Following up on that, based on the conversations you've had, what are the potential consequences of the Liberals taking Canada down this road from the U.S. towards China?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association

Brian Kingston

The U.S. is moving to seal off the U.S. market from Chinese product making it into the States or Chinese manufacturers incurring and gaining market share. As the U.S. goes down that road, because of our integration, we need to work with them in that effort.

By taking a different approach, we've now presented a risk, which I am assured will end up being an irritant in the discussions around the renewal of CUSMA. Typically, when you head into a review of a trade deal, you're trying to reduce irritants. We've introduced a vehicle-sized irritant onto the table.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

To follow up again, the success of the Canadian and North American auto sector has always been based on the regulatory harmony that's existed between both countries, from the auto pact to the free trade agreement to CUSMA. In fact, the Japanese ambassador to Canada recently indicated, when he was interviewed by CTV, that continued access to the U.S. market under CUSMA was essential for companies considering expanding vehicle production in Canada. Honda and Toyota are two of the biggest auto manufacturers in Canada.

Brian or David, can you comment on that? What are the risks?

3:50 p.m.

President & Chief Executive Officer, Global Automakers of Canada

David Adams

Part of the risk is that, this action, as you say, could potentially stifle other investments by existing players in the marketplace. The other reality is that the aspiration of making Chinese manufacturing happen here is not likely unless we get our borders sorted out.

This has to be a triaged exercise where we have our focus and attention on the U.S. and then look elsewhere. It's always good to have a backup plan, but we shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Burton, it's good to see you again.

I was on that international trade committee in 2024 when you first appeared. In that meeting, you said the following:

My judgment is that the potential security threat trumps all of the other factors in our consideration of Chinese EVs. Just as we've banned Huawei telecommunications technologies from Canadian infrastructure, on the same basis we should ban all import of Chinese electric vehicles.

Do you still believe that?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Sinopsis, As an Individual

Charles Burton

Yes, I do, and I think advances in technology make this reality even more terrifying and a greater threat to Canadian security.

I think a lot of Canadians really don't take this as seriously as they should. We are getting constant warnings from our own security agencies and security agencies around the world that the Chinese are using Internet-connected devices, whether they're EVs, Chinese software in water filtration systems or any number of elements of what's referred to as the Internet of things, to try to engage in what is effectively a hybrid war that could cause us grave difficulties if there were to be a kinetic war between China and the west.

I think Canadians believe war consists of blowing up buildings in countries far away, but when we find that our banking system no longer works, cars don't run and the water is undrinkable, I think we'll realize we're in a very different scenario in this modern age than in previous wars.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

Some nations have looked to ban the use of Chinese-made EVs for their military members and have denied access to military installations. Do you agree with these moves?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Sinopsis, As an Individual

Charles Burton

Yes, I think it's the right move. I think we should be doing the same.

We already have some partial bans. Government employees can't use TikTok, because TikTok is one of these Internet-of-things devices that gathers up data and tries to shape people's perceptions of China. I think the same thing has to apply to EVs.

As we know from other testimony, there are also concerns about forced labour in their manufacturing of aluminum. We got that from Margaret McCuaig-Johnston when she testified, and we've had them—

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

I have just a couple of seconds left. I want to ask you one last question.

Last week, the U.S. ambassador to Canada suggested that Canadians who buy Chinese-made EVs will not be allowed to drive them into the U.S. What are your thoughts on that?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Sinopsis, As an Individual

Charles Burton

I think that's the direction they're going. You'll appear at the border with your EV, and you'll be allowed to enter the U.S., but the car won't be. It's not just the ambassador. A number of people out of Washington are suggesting that this is what will happen. They would only be for Canadian domestic use.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, MP Baldinelli.

Now we'll proceed to MP Rana for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for your valuable time.

I will start with you, Dr. Burton.

The government has described this arrangement as an opportunity to attract Chinese venture investment in Canada's EV supply chain. In your view, what does Canada need to get right for that to work?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Sinopsis, As an Individual

Charles Burton

There are concerns that the Chinese EVs coming into Canada will be coming in as kits and will not be providing employment opportunities to Canadian auto workers. I know that my former superior in the Canadian embassy in Beijing, Guy Saint-Jacques, suggested that we could have them come in under Canadian rules and that perhaps by year 10 we could have the Chinese EV manufacturers using Canadian-produced parts.

Frankly, based on my experience in China, I don't think China will abide by our rules fairly. We've seen time and time again where China has not done that. The idea that China would agree to BYD manufacturing EVs in Canada using entirely Canadian-sourced products is extremely unlikely.

I'm not optimistic about this or how we can make it work.