Evidence of meeting #8 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amr.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Victor Leung  Physician, As an Individual
Allison McGeer  Professor, Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Simon Otto  Associate Professor, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Sauve  Antimicrobial Stewardship Pharmacotherapy Specialist, As an Individual
Scott Weese  Professor, University of Guelph and Director, Centre for Public Health and Zoonoses, As an Individual

5:05 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of Alberta, As an Individual

Dr. Simon Otto

From a residue standpoint, the answer is yes, but the other part of it is tracking, with detail, what drugs are being used, for example, in a long-term care facility, so that we know what's coming out. If we can't link antimicrobial resistance data on pathogens and bacteria to whether it's residues or use in those populations, then it's hard to understand what's driving resistance levels.

Jennifer McKelvie Liberal Ajax, ON

Typical pathogens love us, because we're warm and we have—

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Your time is up.

Jennifer McKelvie Liberal Ajax, ON

Okay, I'll ask later.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

We will now proceed to MP Blanchette-Joncas.

Please go ahead. You have six minutes.

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses here with us today.

Dr. Leung, in 2020, 82% of antimicrobials sold in Canada were for veterinary use. Your program allows for returns on investments to be generated on the remaining 18% of antimicrobials, which are for human use. How do we reconcile this economic objective with the urgent need to preserve the effectiveness of antimicrobials and combat bacterial resistance? Do you have an estimate of these savings?

5:05 p.m.

Physician, As an Individual

Dr. Victor Leung

I missed the first part of the question. Could you repeat the question, please?

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

We'll start from the top.

Can you please start from the beginning? Thank you.

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC

In 2020, 82% of antimicrobials sold in Canada were for veterinary use. Your program allows for returns on investment to be generated on the remaining 18% of antimicrobials, which are for human use. How do we reconcile this economic objective with the urgent need to preserve the effectiveness of antimicrobials and combat bacterial resistance? Do you have an estimate of these savings?

5:05 p.m.

Physician, As an Individual

Dr. Victor Leung

In the hospital antimicrobial stewardship programs, most return on investment is a combination of the extent to which antimicrobial costs are saved through the programs that are implemented and the projected costs in the prevention of driving resistance and in the increasing adverse event rates associated with these antibiotics, as well as all the other downstream impacts that happen when there's overuse of antimicrobials.

At a human-scale level, an antimicrobial stewardship program in the hospital, when compared to the animal scale in terms of quantity—grams—of antimicrobials, is significantly less. However, the return on investment economically is measured in ways that focus on how we reduce antimicrobial overuse in the health care system, in hospital systems, and also how that will result in reduction of adverse events related to antimicrobials.

Adverse events, when we think of antibiotics, are not just antimicrobial resistance. They're all the things that drive medication consequences. We know that the class of antibiotics, when compared to other classes of medications, is often the number two or number three driver of medication adverse events. Therefore, the measure of return on investment has to be broader in scale and not just focused on the costs of procurement or the cost of the use of antibiotics itself.

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC

You work with multidisciplinary teams to implement surveillance systems for resistant organisms. Antimicrobial resistance is definitely a complex problem that impacts human, animal and environmental health. However, our research funding system still works largely in silos, hindering the development of truly interdisciplinary projects.

Do you think better support for cross‑sectoral research could strengthen our collective ability to respond to the growing threat of antimicrobial resistance?

5:10 p.m.

Physician, As an Individual

Dr. Victor Leung

Research is definitely an important pillar in confronting antimicrobial resistance, but research alone is not enough.

Yes, the research has to be applicable, translational or at a basic science level. All of the different types of research have impacts on dealing with antimicrobial resistance, but research alone is not sufficient.

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC

In the 2024 federal budget, the government announced the creation of an umbrella organization, but it has yet to be put in place. This organization would be aimed at better coordinating the three granting councils and encouraging interdisciplinary research. In your opinion, should this approach be strengthened?

5:10 p.m.

Physician, As an Individual

Dr. Victor Leung

Again, I missed the first part of what approach we need to reinforce.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

The interpretation cut out.

Could you please repeat the question?

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC

Madam Chair, these technical difficulties show the importance of having interpreters here, in the room, and not off site. I hope people and the government heard that clearly.

Dr. Leung, I'll repeat my question. In the 2024 federal budget, the government announced the creation of an umbrella organization, which still has not been put in place. This organization would be aimed at better coordinating the three granting councils and encouraging interdisciplinary research. In your opinion, should this approach be strengthened?

5:10 p.m.

Physician, As an Individual

Dr. Victor Leung

I don't know which specific organization you're referring to that was established to look at this. I would have to reference what specific organization you're referring to in order to answer that question of whether or not I think it's beneficial to ensure this funding gets increased or this program continues. I'm not sure.

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC

Madam Chair, taking all these technical problems into account, how much time do I have left?

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

It's two minutes and 38 seconds.

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Dr. Leung, Québec and the provinces are experiencing growing pressure in hospitals because of antimicrobial resistance, while Ottawa funds only 22% of health costs. Does this funding imbalance limit institutions' ability to prevent the spread of antimicrobial‑resistant infections and to maintain appropriate prevention teams?

5:10 p.m.

Physician, As an Individual

Dr. Victor Leung

I don't know the specifics of how much is allocated in Quebec and what's it's allocated to. I would say that whenever funding is allocated, the important things that I think would be useful are the accountability for how that funding was used, in order to learn if the funding was appropriately allocated and therefore requires more extensive funding, or whether we can learn from how the funding was allocated so that, prior to just increasing finances towards a problem, we can better understand how that can be efficiently used for fiscal sustainability.

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Dr. Leung.

Dr. McGeer, Dr. Herman Barkema, professor at the University of Calgary, recently highlighted that Québec has taken the lead by banning the use of category one antimicrobials in agriculture and that this approach works very well. Could this kind of initiative based on concrete results be better integrated or promoted in a flexible, coordinated one health approach that takes regional realities into account?

October 8th, 2025 / 5:10 p.m.

Professor, Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Allison McGeer

It's both an advantage and a disadvantage in Canada that we have differences between provinces. Sometimes you can see that in prevention Quebec is in many ways ahead of many of the rest of us in other provinces, with a greater value put on prevention and protecting people in health.

I think there are a number of places across Canada where you can choose pilot projects or different policies that are working really well in one province and that we could transport to other provinces. That is clearly one of them within the agricultural sector. As you know, sometimes it's more difficult to move things from one province to another.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

We will now start our second round of questioning with MP Mahal.

MP Mahal, you will have five minutes for your round of questioning. Please go ahead.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jagsharan Singh Mahal Conservative Edmonton Southeast, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Dr. Leung, I want to come to you with my questions. As you said in your initial statement, there are barriers in the Canadian market. Accessibility is falling behind. We are at the bottom of the G7 when it comes to accessibility and all those challenges. Given the last 10 years of Liberal overspending and that now they are planning for the budget to be cut heavily in all these important areas, how do you think it's going to impact AMR and research related to AMR?