Special Committee on Cooperatives Committee on July 10th, 2012

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Oh, okay.

[Stephen Fitzpatrick]

—so they aren't....

Honestly, I'm not sure. I know that when they came in they purchased the branches of another credit union. I think for that arm they were operating under the Ontario rules, so they were really operating in two different regimes.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

So basically they had two separate —

[The Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Sorry, the time has expired. Could we have just a yes or no response then on that? It was a yes to that last question?

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I was just asking if they were therefore operating under two different sorts of credit union structures to comply with each of the provincial regulations of two provinces.

[Stephen Fitzpatrick]

Yes, they were.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you. Your time has expired.

We move now to Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

On that, I believe Desjardins also operates caisses populaires in Ontario. It would be interesting to find out how that's structured. I believe Caisses populaires de l'Ontario operates as an entity and is affiliated. It would be useful, Mr. Chairman, to make sure that at some time among our witnesses Desjardins be included, as well as the Conseil canadien de la coopération et de la mutualité, which is the francophone pendant of Madam Guy. I believe you've received a request to that effect, and I think it would be very important that we include them as well.

Madam Guy, I'm asking not for a response now but for you to do some homework, if I may be so bold. I know it's summer, but I would love to get a detailed paper on the six items you identified. Or to put it differently, what are the needs or the gaps, as one of our previous witnesses, the gentleman representing Industry Canada, mentioned? Where there are gaps, the government might want to create some capacity to help fill them, especially in the case of environment or initiatives such as co-ops, which are very positive. What are the things that are not being addressed, or on which co-ops come up short because of administrative matters and so forth? We can then look at those in detail and perhaps they could be included in the committee's report.

Mr. Fitzpatrick, I want to make sure I understand. When you say credit unions have assets of $140 billion, that's just the credit unions. It doesn't include Desjardins, correct?

[Stephen Fitzpatrick]

That's correct.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Because they have about the same amount or even more.

We've heard comments that there are $350 billion of assets out there, but surely to God that's not the money that's available to co-ops. That's the money, or a good chunk of it, the co-ops are holding, which belongs to their clients. Is that correct? We need to understand the difference here, because when I asked the minister in the House what the government had done since announcing its intentions in January 2012, he responded by saying they got $350 billion of capital and therefore they don't need our help. So I want to make sure that I understand what the nature of that capital is. Is it basically members' assets or members' own personal assets?

[Stephen Fitzpatrick]

In our case, the $140 billion in assets would be largely loans to members.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

But it doesn't belong to you or to the co-ops. It belongs to the members?

[Stephen Fitzpatrick]

Yes, for member-owned institutions, the assets are owned by the members.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I want to explore very briefly the insured mortgage purchase program that was instituted by the government, which made available $125 billion. Over two years, $69 billion was taken up. Does anyone have a sense of how much was taken up by the banks and how much may have been taken up by the credit unions? Does anybody have those numbers?

[Marion Wrobel]

The vast majority would have been taken up by the banks, but we do understand that some degree of that was taken up by the credit unions through Central 1, which is the Central for Ontario and British Columbia.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Could you elaborate a bit on that, Mr. Fitzpatrick? How did that work?

[Stephen Fitzpatrick]

There are two entities in the credit union system: Central 1, as Mr. Wrobel referred to, and Concentra, which is based in Saskatchewan. They're both federally regulated, and they have both participated in the mortgage lending programs.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Do you have a sense of to what extent that was?

[Stephen Fitzpatrick]

I don't have the total number.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

If it's possible to attain that, could you send it to the clerk so that it could be distributed to the members of the committee?

I've been told—and I've had it pretty well confirmed—that the banks paid bonuses last year to their staff and the executives of $9.2 billion. Is that figure accurate, Mr. Wrobel?

[Marion Wrobel]

I don't know the number.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Well, for the top five banks, it's $8.87 billion, and that doesn't include the national, though I expect—

[Marion Wrobel]

I would simply point out that within the context of banking, bonuses are part of the compensation system for a wide range of employees. When we talk about bonuses, they're not just for very senior executives. They're for all rank and file....

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

But $9.2 billion were paid in bonuses over and above the salaries. Is that correct?

[Marion Wrobel]

That could very well be.