Special Committee on Cooperatives Committee on July 24th, 2012

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me add my voice of welcome to my colleagues' in suggesting it was very good of you folks to come and share your thoughts with us on this very important topic.

I have a couple of questions for clarification. We've heard a lot of people say it's not the time to leave the program, so put the pedal to the metal and stay going flat out. When is it time to leave programs?

If we think of government in different philosophical phases, it's a reconstruction kind of operation where you say there's something happening here and we're going to help it. That happened with government and co-ops in the early going. Are co-ops now able to stand on their own and they don't need government help? This would complete the cycle of the reconstruction theory where business then is able to operate with its own resources, and government moves on to other issues--for example, health care, which is still a burning issue.

There are so many dollars to spend from the government side of the coin. The question is, as always, when is it time to not spend dollars for this, that, or the other thing? What are your thoughts on that?

[Dave Whiting]

If I might say, cooperative development is more than just starting up a new cooperative. There are some existing cooperatives, and as we get into the community economic initiatives, you have to form boards for them.

Today, ordinary people are reluctant to sit on a board of directors because of all the legal implications. There's a role out there for somebody to educate these people, to tell them what they should be doing. It's not rocket science.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Dave, pardon my interruption, but does it fall on government to follow on that mandate?

[Dave Whiting]

No, it doesn't fall on government, but government could help out. That's all I'm saying. We can deliver it.

Back in the early 1900s, you couldn't give away P.E.I. eggs. It was the government that came in and helped out with regulations and inspections, which turned that product around. It was the same with seed potatoes and lobster. There is a role for government.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Is the government still involved in it?

[Dave Whiting]

Yes, but it's not to the same extent.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Okay.

[Dave Whiting]

There is a role for government, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you just shovel in a bunch of cash. There are groups there that can do it very economically. They just need a little bit of assistance to impart this knowledge to these people.

I'll tell you quite frankly, because I heard it when I was in Nova Scotia, the problem with some boards saying that you shouldn't sit on a board unless you can understand a financial statement or can understand the legalities. Well, that's not the role of a board. A board of directors should have on it a wide variety of interests. Just because you can't read a financial statement, you shouldn't be prohibited from sitting on a board. Half our municipal councils wouldn't be able to sit.

It's not hard if somebody just lets them know what they should be doing and how to be careful about it. That's all it takes.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Are there any other comments from the other panel members?

[Dianne Kelderman]

Sure. I'm very happy to respond to that.

When is a good time for government to end programs? I'll tell you when is not a good time for government to end programs, and that is during an economically challenging time. I wouldn't say it's an economic crisis. But an economically challenging time is not a good time for the government to entrench, and it's particularly not a good time to disengage a sector that is really responding, is making moves, and is trying to be productive and be part of the solution.

I would also suggest that it's not a good time to do it when you do it without consultation and you just cut it: it was here yesterday, and it's going to be cut off tomorrow, and that kind of thing.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Were you consulted when the program started?

[Dianne Kelderman]

Absolutely.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

People say that they stopped the program without consultation. I guess my first question is whether you were there when the program started. Was there some consultation when it started? Or did it just start, and then everyone thought it was pretty good, because the corporation or the company received resources?

[Dianne Kelderman]

As in all government programs, programs start, and they start for particular reasons. Whether they're economic reasons or social reasons or political reasons, they start, and then they end. But in this particular case, what I think would have been helpful and appropriate would have been to sit down with a sector and say that we're in a time of austerity, a time of financially challenging times. We can all understand and buy that. Asking how we are going to manage this, what you are giving, what we are giving, and what the end date of this is going to be I think would be appropriate.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

My next question is how we get to a framework—

[The Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

I'm sorry, Mr. Boughen. Your next question will have to wait until you have the floor, because your time has expired.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Chair, you're keeping me down here.

Thanks, panel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

That concludes our second round of questioning. We'll move to the third round.

Mr. Preston, the floor is yours, for five minutes.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you very much.

I think we should start timing the chair. I think he's cutting us all off.

I'll go a little further from where Mr. Boughen was going.

The real thought here, and we continue to hear it, is that there needs to be some sort of scope of awareness and education. That seems to be part of it, whether it's between any one of your project businesses or cooperative businesses and ACOA or another government department, or whether it is being recognized as a co-op and how lending or business incentives may work. We've discussed that with more than you, and we've heard that our federal development agencies need to know the differences between a stand-alone not-for-profit, a stand-alone for-profit, and a cooperative, which never stands alone; it's always with more than one person. That education needs to happen.

Dianne, I'm looking at you, because you've said some great things today. But this is for all of you, obviously.

You said that you have a great working relationship with your province on some of the economic development things they're doing. You don't go cap in hand. You say let's work together. It sounds like a cooperative to me.

How do we get the same level of education and awareness? What needs to happen for that to be the same at the federal level? I guess in our case it would be ACOA, but there certainly are other government ministries involved, in the Atlantic provinces, in Nova Scotia, P.E.I, and New Brunswick. How do we ramp up that education?

Dianne, you go first, and then I'll take it from anyone.

[Dianne Kelderman]

Sure.

Again, it's a good question. Just to make it clear, again, we're not talking exclusively about ACOA, because there are many other federal programs and federal agencies. Farm Credit Canada is another good example in Atlantic Canada.

We do need to ramp up the awareness and the education, and I think these kinds of meetings are really important. I'm willing to guess that if we were to do a survey of the elected officials in government and then of the top senior civil service in government, their understanding of the cooperative sector as an economic player would be minimal, at best.

It's education, awareness, getting in your door, and having some sort of willingness by the federal government to ensure that this kind of information, this kind of awareness and knowledge, is actually part of what you do. You're representing this country. You're representing every region, every industry, and every sector, so be informed. Be willing to be informed. Invite us in. Have the door open when we do come. All of those things I think will help move it forward.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I'll accept that, and I'll accept that there's lots of homework we could all do. But you are asking us to be absolutely aware of everything that happens in the country, and sometimes we do have to get research from other places.

On that same thing, David, could you answer?

[Dave Whiting]

I think, on Dianne's point, the government agencies have to have the door open if we go to them. It's not just on this. When the security regulations came in in 2004, there was a complete disconnect between Transport Canada and the border service agencies. I know that there was a committee of all those agencies at the federal level in Ottawa, but it didn't get down to the ground troops.

That's what's happening here too. I noticed, coming from Nova Scotia over to P.E.I., a complete difference in the on-the-ground-knowledge and the willingness to work between the ACOA people in one part and.... That shouldn't be.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I asked for your help. You are the experts. You have to help us teach ourselves, and them too. I certainly have been welcoming in speaking to all the different co-op groups we can. But we're learning something here pretty much every day, too.

Thank you for that piece.

Dianne, if you don't mind, I want to touch a bit on your health co-op piece, because it's really interesting. It's maybe a bit off, but I want to ask you a question. How does a provider get paid in this situation? Is it a health card situation? How does the doctor get...?

[Dianne Kelderman]

Unfortunately, it's not a health card provider situation, because in Nova Scotia, MSI is the billable engine. By the way, we provide billing services for MSI for 1,600 doctors in Nova Scotia. They are inside of our clinic also, on the billing side of things.

These are uninsured services, so our patients in our clinic either pay a subscription to be part of our clinic, or our members, the cooperatives and credit unions—

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

It's a cooperative entity, but they are paying something above and beyond what their health—