Special Committee on Violence Against Indigenous Women Committee on Dec. 5th, 2013

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.

At Status of Women Canada, one of the goals is to engage men and boys in making women's safety a priority and shared responsibility. One of my favourite initiatives that we've done is “Be More than a Bystander”, and I think—correct me of I'm wrong—you have a forum coming up next week.

[Carole Brazeau]

Yes.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

It focuses on honouring men in the National Aboriginal Circle Against Family Violence, which I think is great. You were looking for aboriginal male role models for 2013 and 2014. Can you tell me the importance of focusing your efforts on reaching out to aboriginal men, which would be including them with the issues facing the women?

[Carole Brazeau]

Yes, well the conference concept this year is regarding supporting men's initiatives for non-violence that raise awareness in the aboriginal communities. So the Nishiiyuu men who walked from Mistissini to Chisasibi will be there as well. It's just leading by example, which is mainly the approach we are taking.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

How will you work towards educating and engaging the men and boys so you can promote the safety of women in your communities?

[Dr. Anita Olsen Harper]

This forum that's happening next week is actually the first of its kind NACAFV has been involved with that is specifically geared towards men and boys. Usually, our efforts have been towards the front-line staff and the executive directors of the on-reserve women's shelters. I really do hope it's a part of something that's going to be fairly regular, because when we address women's issues only from the women's point of view, we are not looking at the other half of the picture, the men and the boys.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you. Agreed.

At this conference, then, I know what you hope to gain, but how do you anticipate you're going to go about it? How will you engage those men who are there so that they take something back to their communities or perhaps to some young boys?

[Carole Brazeau]

It will be all men who are going to lead this conference, so that's also part of the concept. We're there to support any of their initiatives and any of the leads they're taking. We are encouraging that.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you. I look forward to seeing that.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

We'll go over to you, Ms. Bennett.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you again.

One of the things we heard from others and from government officials is that the data isn't as good as it should be. We heard that maybe in New Zealand they have a better way of tracking what we're dealing with.

For all of you, I guess, obviously the murder clearance rate seems to be worrying, but do you have data as to the deaths due to intimate partners versus strangers or versus the sex trade? How do we solve this, I think, unless we know what we're dealing with?

Do we have a geographic approach in terms of needs-based funding? How do you know if these programs are working? Do you get to see the incidence of violence decrease if it's an effective program? Surely, too, we occasionally try things that don't work. Are we sharing the ones that aren't working such that we can actually really make sure that what we fund is effective?

I'll just throw these out for you.

I didn't realize that you're mainly dealing with first nations at the circle, because we've heard very clearly from Pauktuutit and the Métis that there needs to be a distinctions-based approach if you're going to deal with secure personal cultural identity and some of the things that we know actually work.

My third question that all of you can answer in whatever way you want is on, I think, the lack of cooperation between police forces, which is certainly the perception of the families we've talked to. Some even have called for not only a national action plan but a task force, from the RCMP to provincial policing to aboriginal policing. How do we show that people are talking amongst themselves and that these investigations really are taking place in a real way?

I think that when at the October 3 round table we did with families a stepfather says that he should have been the suspect and no one even questioned him, people don't feel that this is being taken seriously, and they feel that for some of these missing and murdered women, it's just somehow written off as inevitable, which is where I think we're seeing the lack of trust.

Answer whichever bits you want to.

Superintendent, maybe you want to?

[Supt Susanne Decock]

Sure. Thank you. I'd be happy to start.

I'll speak to the evaluation piece you mentioned first, the piece about the programming. That for sure has been a challenge and a struggle. We can say that we think it works, or that we're doing a great job, but how do we really know for sure? In particular, the training that we deliver at the aboriginal policing bureau for our provincial liaison team officers and, more importantly, perhaps, the youth programming that we deliver, is something we've been working on in—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Do you measure incidents in the school and then watch them go down? How do you measure what's going on?

[Supt Susanne Decock]

The evaluation I'm speaking of is around the program we're delivering for youth in the communities. We're looking at partnering on third-party evaluations, if you will, so it is not we who are measuring our programs. We've had some discussions with first nations community leaders. We're reaching out to some local universities.

To be honest, trying to nail down that third-party evaluation piece has been a struggle, but that is an ongoing—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

A lot of us think we have to move from evaluation to applied research, and the applied research usually does require some sort of post-secondary lending of graduate students to community-based organizations to find out what's working and what's not working. Just evaluating how everybody felt about it I don't think is going to work.

[Supt Susanne Decock]

That's a good point, for sure. Recently we've been having some discussions with a graduate student from York University. She's doing some work on aboriginal critical incidents, the police response in particular. She's working on that nationally and we've participated in that and we're happy to do so and, yes, we're looking at partnering with some universities, looking at our numbers around youth programming. That's hard to measure, for sure.

[Dr. Anita Olsen Harper]

I think your question on evaluation is a very valid one. I've done a few evaluations but I've found, almost without exception, that the people whom one is never required to ask or consult are the people who receive the programs, which to me is glaring.

It's very difficult to do research within native communities. The risk is very high in this area. Passing through any sort of ethics protocol is lengthy and consent from the chief and council or the health authority is very problematic.

I agree that more work has to be done in that area because I have found evaluation is a really weak area, and as you say, things are probably done over and over again without it being really firm and clear that this is indeed helping people.

When we are asked for reports on whatever we deliver, we're not even sure they're read, let alone how far the recommendations we give might go.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

In terms of funding for the shelters, we've heard both at this committee and at the hearings on Bill S-2 that there don't seem to be enough shelters, and if there aren't shelters then there is probably not transitional housing. Certainly, hearing that 70% in Nunavut don't have a shelter is worrying.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

Let's have a quick answer, please.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

If places are full all the time, how do you find out where you should be investing more in?

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

We have time for a very short answer.

[Carole Brazeau]

We know that shelters are there to provide safe spaces for women and children and we believe that they are there to prevent domestic homicides when a woman is in such a situation; therefore, I believe we would require many more shelters than are currently available. The ones that are available are underfunded.

As well, it is important to meet with the families whose loved ones have been murdered or are missing or are victims of domestic homicides, so they know NWAC supports them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

To be fair, I'm going to interrupt you to go over to Ms. Brown for her seven minutes.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much, ladies, for your insight. It's good to hear your testimony.

Superintendent, I am going to start with you, if I may. You identified yourself as a member of a band.

[Supt Susanne Decock]

Yes.