Special Committee on Violence Against Indigenous Women Committee on Feb. 13th, 2014

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

Yes, I think it's essential to have that. You need an adequate investment and you need regular evaluation as to whether that investment is actually reaching those who need it. You need strong oversight and accountability to see if that's working.

With regard to the idea of a crisis team, you know, not every community is the same. I certainly see in my work that there are pockets where there is need for deep intervention and immediate crisis response. There are others where you just need ongoing support. Certainly many communities require, at the minimum, a safe house and some victims services that are well designed and run by, and hopefully for, aboriginal women. You often need something as basic but as committed as a navigator, a person who can actually navigate the criminal justice and victims services system and create safety.

Many of these require an investment, a consistent, stable, long-term investment with an evaluation as to whether or not they're meeting the needs of women. That is not present at the moment. There are episodic investments, there are plans, but as I say, I have difficulty seeing on the ground, in the 203 first nations in B.C., that these have a strong footprint.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Monsieur Genest-Jourdain.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Good evening, Ms. Turpel-Lafond.

I have a quick question in regard to violence prevention programs aimed at men. I want to know your appreciation of such initiatives.

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

Yes, that is a critical issue. In order to create safety for girls and women, the evidence is very strong, and it's also my experience around domestic violence policy, that when there is not engagement with men, there will not be long-term safety.

There has to be engagement with men, first of all to do assessments around the degree of risk they may pose. Family reunification may not be possible. You need to understand that. For lower-risk individuals, men and boys, there needs to be appropriate therapeutic interventions to de-escalate the violence and also to promote better strategies to support child development and well-being. Where you see these types of programs in place, support programs for men in particular, you see a strong correlation between those and a reduction in violence.

I do not see programs like that available on reserve. That is a strategic area that requires an investment.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dechert, for five minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Turpel-Lafond, for sharing your expertise with us. I have to say that hearing your background, as you described it earlier, you seem very, very well versed in the topic we're discussing at this committee.

One area I want to discuss with you is the relationship between aboriginal people and the police generally. We've heard from a number of witnesses, including the families of some of the victims, that they feel they cannot trust the police to protect them.

Do you see aboriginal youth sharing this same view of police? If so, what in your view can police do to restore or establish good relations with aboriginal communities? And do you know of any positive practices that exist between aboriginal communities and police that you could point to that we should expand upon nationally?

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

Yes, I think there are very serious concerns that have been brought forward. I of course don't investigate police issues to be able to comment on specifics, but certainly some reports, like the Human Rights Watch report, have brought out some serious concerns on the part of girls and women.

For instance, in the suicide report that I did recently, I was very troubled by the fact that the girl, when she disclosed having been sexually abused, was interviewed by a fully uniformed RCMP officer in a room where they normally interrogate a suspect. Her grandparents weren't told what she was being interviewed about, and essentially the interviewer continued to question her about whether she had consented, whether she had consented. So she broke down and the whole process ended.

I don't fault the officer on the handling of it. He was fairly fresh out of Depot, serving in a rural community, not being very supportive and not necessarily having a high degree of training. There are serious issues in the delivery of police services that have to be addressed, and a lot of that comes down to how police respond to the disclosure of an incident.

I don't think it's as deep as a culture of disbelief, saying “We don't believe sexual abuse happens”. I think it's more a culture of their being overwhelmed by other things and not being sure they can address this. What concerns me more is the front-line police experience is often one of “We don't know what to do here, and we are not sure how we're going to bring this issue out because it seems to be pretty widespread”. That is a concern. I see the police frequently bringing cases to my office saying they'd like some other response because they are concerned about this but it is difficult to deal with.

I think you are right that the policing issues are there. They have to be addressed, and I think they have to be addressed through better relationships between police and girls and women. And when a girl discloses, for instance, physical and sexual abuse, there has to be safety around that child. I'm not saying you have to believe everything they say. There has to be a proper investigation and report—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Was someone prosecuted for the sexual abuse against that young woman?

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

Well, no. The police didn't prepare a report to crown because after she was interrogated—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

That's tragic.

I'm sorry, we're a little short of time, and I did want to ask you about the $25 million that appeared in the budget this week for use to take concrete actions to address the disturbingly high number of missing and murdered aboriginal women and girls. I'm reading from the budget document.

How would you recommend the federal government use that $25 million to reduce violence against aboriginal women and girls?

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

The number one thing I would see is to get out to girls. Do outreach to girls with community if you can, and if not, get to girls and ask what's going on, what's happening here. Actually hit the ground, as we say, boots on the ground. Get in there and ask what's going on and respond to it.

Whether $25 million is enough, I don't know. I'm not looking at all the metrics of it, but I'm grateful for the fact it is there. I'm grateful that it's a beginning, and it needs to be used strategically and appropriately and it needs to build on those who are actually in community dealing with girls, whether that be through the schools or other service streams, to make sure they can feel safe to come forward. They have to have safety and protection from retaliation. It has to be done.

I've seen it done in a few instances, and I know it takes a lot of delicacy with police and others. It takes a lot of talking to community leaders, a lot of talking to leaders in the community asking how to deal with this issue, because not dealing with it is no longer an option. How will we deal with it? I want those resources to actually get down to that level.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Fair enough.

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

I don't want the funds to be spent on high-level planning.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay, fair enough.

You're a provincial court judge. You mentioned that you have been.

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

Yes, I'm on a leave from my position as a provincial court judge to be the representative for—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Are you familiar with the aboriginal justice strategy, and can you provide any comment on it? I notice it was renewed again in the budget this week.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

Very quickly, if you don't mind, please.

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

I'm glad it was renewed, and I know that it has a lot of broad-based reach. I'm not sure how strong the focus has been on girls and women, but nevertheless I think it is valuable to bring forward some of the deeper root causes around the intergenerational problems, yes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Turpel-Lafond.

We really appreciated your testimony, and I'm sure it will help to inform the report. Thank you very much for joining us by telephone today all the way from British Columbia. We appreciate it very much. I hope you have a good evening.

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I wish you all the best with your deliberations and I look forward to seeing your report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

We appreciate that. Thank you so much.

Because the next hour of the meeting is in camera, I will suspend for a minute or two to transfer to in camera.

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Can I make a point of clarification....

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

There's no such thing as a point of clarification, so I'm going to suspend...