Status of Women Committee on June 22nd, 2006

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Good morning, everyone. I'll call to order our 11th meeting of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. If everything goes as planned, this will be the last meeting for this session, and we will all get off and have, I hope, a good summer rest and some time in our ridings.

We have 40 or 45 minutes before the minister comes this morning. It's very important for us to look at the work plan we have. Our analysts have put it together in a couple of sections. We could deal with, let's say, the economic security issues first, trying to break it down into doable pieces of things that we might be able to accomplish, and be able to submit some sort of a report, say, by Christmas on what we have done in the next term.

They have suggested that we need to focus on one of these areas, as far as the economic security section is concerned. We'll deal with the other section after. But initially we need to narrow down quite clearly what we want to accomplish in pieces, where the whole broad area is far too large, and if we were here for four years, we might be able to spend four years on it.

Effectively, what are the roadblocks that women are facing to prevent them from being confident, secure, and financially secure? There are various areas here. So if we focus on the economic security, what particular part should we focus on in the fall so that we can accomplish something between then and December?

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Also, we had on the last agenda our motions that we want to discuss. If we could discuss them this morning, too, it would be great. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes, very much so.

The analysts have prepared some lists with various things on them--which we have in front of us--as to where we want to go, to give them some direction so they can prepare over the summer. If we could deal with this, then we would deal with violence against women. We're trying to narrow it down. We have a motion from Ms. Smith when we get into that section on the human trafficking, which is very much a part of that, but on the economic situations, where should we be focusing and preparing for the fall? Specifically, what are the roadblocks to economic security of women, and where would the committee like to have the analysts prepare during the summer for the fall?

I have Ms. Bourgeois, and then Ms. Mathyssen.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We do indeed have a lot on our plate. If I understood correctly, we have three themes to explore. The first is the economic security of older women, which ties in with the whole question of unpaid work that I've already raised in this forum. This will allow us to look at employment insurance. As I indicated to you, there are 238,000 women in Canada who do not receive employment insurance, but who pay EI premiums.

We'll also have an opportunity to examine the budget of Status of Women Canada. Three or four years ago, this Office did some analyses of employment insurance, although its findings where not released at the time.

Violence against women is a critically important topic. However, by studying the economic security of older women, we would also be touching on this theme indirectly. I remind you that when an older women has no income security, she is the victim of a certain form of violence. I propose that the committee, for all of the reasons I mentioned, examine the economic security of older women and in so doing, it can broach subjects such as women and the justice system, access to legal aid, women and employment insurance and women and health care. We could touch on all of these themes.

In conclusion, Madam Chair, I want to say that for the past several years, in conjunction with my duties in the House of Commons, I have been working with women's groups in Canada and in Quebec. When we reconvene for the fall session, I think we could quickly address a number of irritants. I think that would make women's groups very happy.

That concludes my remarks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Just to try to narrow it down, of the issues you referred to, specifically which ones do you suggest we might be able to resolve rather quickly?

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

By focusing on the economic security of older women, we would also be able to explore the three related areas that I mentioned.

Older women who have no source of income experience physical and psychological problems. They have difficulty obtaining financial assistance and legal aid. Mr. Cotler talked about these problems earlier. The committee could address all of these issues, not merely in terms of how they affect Caucasian women, but also in a broader sense, in terms of their impact on Aboriginal and immigrant women.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the staff for the work plan. It's wonderful, and I agree that the economic security of senior women is very important and we should look at it carefully.

My concern is that we have a rather extensive plan here, and in view of the shortage of time, there's absolutely no way we can waste any time. It is always a concern when we lose time. So in that regard, I think it's very important that we look at violence against women. But I'd like to point out to the committee that there's already been a great deal of work done on human trafficking.

In fact, I have here a bill that was proclaimed in November 2005. On the Department of Justice website, a great deal of information is currently available. There's a pamphlet warning women, in 16 languages, about the perils of trusting people to bring them into the country--trafficking in persons, questions and answers. All kinds of information and work has already been done.

I must commend the Conservative caucus. If we look back at the Hansard from last week, Ms. Smith said that trafficking is a deplorable crime that the government is addressing, and a crime that won't be tolerated.

So if it has already been addressed and is currently being addressed, perhaps we can delete that section and move on to things that are perhaps more pertinent. We have very limited time, and I think it's incumbent upon us to strike new ground and move ahead. There are so many things we haven't done, and I would like to go forward rather than simply staying in place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I would like to speak on the human trafficking issue. It's an issue I've been working on for the better part of 10 years, and I want to take a moment to explain that it has not been explored. What is happening right now is the former government passed a very useful bill on human trafficking, and it's very helpful. A few weeks ago in Solberg's shop he did the same.

I've been working with police officers. I've been working on three continents...Ukraine, Israel, and North America. I just met with the RCMP last week. They finally have a new video out. They're training their police officers on this, because it's a growing crime. What is happening is it's spreading in an insidious way. There were 800 women trafficked last year to Canada and over 2,200 trafficked through Canada to the U.S. It's a very serious issue. It is growing, and it's all about organized crime and drugs.

I think it's very important that we as a status of women committee examine human trafficking and take it seriously, because our daughters and the young boys are being affected today in our schoolyards.

There are aboriginal women. I just talked to one two days ago.

I had a big forum in Winnipeg two weeks ago on a Saturday. It was packed. The ambassador from Ukraine was there. I've been working with her. Ambassador Miller's chief of state for human trafficking was there. They're all saying the same thing. They're saying this is a crime. They're saying we have to put resources in and we have to examine...and I think the status of women committee is a perfect place for us as women to stand up and say we will not tolerate this horrendous crime.

I think, of course, we have to look at EI and aspects like that as well. So we do have limited time, I can understand that. I think it would be prudent of us to divide that time between maybe something like EI or some very important aspects of financial concerns, especially for senior women and immigrants. I think we do have to take, in this day and age, some concentrated time and bring witnesses in. I have the witnesses. I have listed them. They can come and educate us.

Each one of us as women parliamentarians needs to take a stand on this. We need to work on it and we have to stop it, ladies and gentlemen, because this is a crime that is growing.

My son was in the ICE unit, the Integrated Child Exploitation Unit. I didn't know about this until he got into it--well, I knew about it before, but not to the extent I know now. I have to tell you that this is on our streets, and I think it behooves us to listen to the witnesses, to listen to the people who can come and tell us what's going on, because every child is in jeopardy in our country--if they go to school, if they're on the streets. It's not just some child who is on the streets on his own. You would be surprised if you heard these witnesses.

So I'm going to appeal to you to please support the study of human trafficking. It's important for all of us. It is not a party thing. It's important for all of us as women.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you.

Let me talk first to the issue of trafficking. I put that in, when we talked about violence against women, as a key topic, so I believe we need to address it. However, I do know the research and the work that was done when the previous bill was put through the House. And in my recent discussions with Mr. Cotler, the former Minister of Justice who put forward the bill, he suggested to me he would make some amendments to the bill to strengthen certain sections.

So I think that's an area we could probably deal with. I'm not quite sure that it needs a huge amount of hearings, because a lot of the work has been done and the research is there. What we need to do is look at where we need to strengthen or add to what we did last time. We have September to November, basically, because then Christmas gets in the way and then you're finished. So we have three months, because we don't come back until September 18.

So my suggestion would be that we could carry two topics, as we did this session. We did do that, and we just got started on others. So we could deal with the issue of trafficking by first informing ourselves over the summer and getting information on the previous bill, on what it actually does, and then information from the ministry as to.... And I can ask our colleague, Mr. Cotler, what he meant when he suggested that he would make some improvements. Then we would be ready with information, and trafficking might be something we can address without having to take the whole of the fall on it. I don't think it requires that, given the fact that a great deal of work has already been done, as has already been mentioned. It may mean adjusting or adding certain aspects to close loopholes and to ensure that the police or others have certain powers they need to actually do their job.

The other key issue that I think we would deal with is, obviously, income security for women.

My question to you, Madam Chair, would be, do we want to address income security for existing seniors only, or do we want the committee to discuss income security for women in general, and then identify seniors' needs within that, as we go along? There are now women who are working and looking after family and/or others, including seniors. They are themselves going to be seniors very soon, so there's an issue there.

We've dealt with pay equity, for instance, if we're looking at income security. I'm looking here at some of the issues you want to focus on, but we've dealt with pay equity. Well, we've re-tabled it, and the issue has been studied, so I don't know that we need to go back to that as an issue, except to put it down as one of the major issues that need to be addressed in order to address income security.

Housing affects women's security. Unemployment insurance benefits also affect income security for women, because a lot of women don't qualify under the current legislation, so that's a major problem we need to look at. And there is the child care issue, and we need to see how effective we are in that area. Then, of course, the other is pay equity, which is a huge one. Unpaid work would be the other one. And there's pension-splitting.

So I think we would start focusing in on income security in terms of the different pieces that impact women's income security and income levels, and take them apart and make a list of them to see how we could get at them. That's what I would suggest, because I think in the three months we should identify three or four major areas that affect women's incomes the most, in terms of their security and their ability to both have a decent income while they're raising their families and then a decent income—at least comparable to that of men—when they are retired. You have to look at income security throughout their lives, not just in one snapshot.

We may want to give a bit of time to focus on current seniors, because they have no choice, as they're poor already; they're there now. They may require some more quick or immediate changes, or adjustments, to ensure they don't spend the last few years of their lives in dire poverty, as some of them are now.

So that's what I would say.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

That's been very helpful. Thank you.

Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, I totally agree with Ms. Smith and Mis Minna that the committee must examine the problem of human trafficking. This problem has already been studied extensively. A bill was introduced and eventually, the provisions could be strengthened. I think we need to invite some people here to discuss this growing phenomenon with us, because the problem shows no signs of going away.

We mustn't delude ourselves into thinking that the problem is only prevalent in certain countries. Contrary to what some may believe, groups such as street gangs, biker gangs and the Italian mafia are engaged in human trafficking on a large scale right here in Canada. It's a major problem that we must not ignore.

In my humble opinion, we need to take a two-pronged approach. I don't mean that we should address the problem in two days, but in two stages. The first step would be for committee members to agree on a global vision. Where does Canada stand on this question? What's happening here in Canada compared to other world countries? Subsequently, we could move on to more specific points.

Is human trafficking growing in countries that have decriminalized prostitution? What connection is there, if any, between the decriminalization of prostitution, the legalization of prostitution and human trafficking? Personally, I haven't seen any data on this, unless you have some information you can share with me. I'm not talking about research that may have been done, but about studies Parliament may have done.

What possible link might there be between human trafficking and other forms of criminal activity, be it drug trafficking or terrorism, since all of these activities are connected? I think it's important to have a good grasp of the issue if we plan to strengthen the legislation or formulate other solutions. In my opinion, our first priority should be to focus on human trafficking.

As Ms. Minna was saying, the committee should also turn its overall attention to the economic situation of women. For one day, we could focus on the plight of older women. In fact, during this session, we set aside two days to examine issues pertaining to older women. Eventually, we could hear again from certain individuals about the economic situation older women face.

Social housing is another very important topic, as is employment insurance and day care. These are three very interesting themes, in addition to the status of older women.

In terms of our timetable and schedule, I do hope that the committee will not set aside four meetings to explore human trafficking, and spend a total of nine weeks on the economic situation of women. At the very least, I hope we can hear from a range of witnesses with different viewpoints and insights. I find the list submitted to be quite interesting because its covers the spectrum. It's important, in my view, that we hear from a cross-section of the population.

Getting back to the Subcommittee on Solicitation Laws which is going to sit in September, I think it's very important for us to explore the whole question of human trafficking within the context of solicitation. We would need to set aside at least one day to examine possible links between the increase in human trafficking and the decriminalization, or legalization, of prostitution. I didn't see any mention of this in the material handed to me. I feel that we need to devote an entire day to exploring this important theme. We could study human trafficking from September until the end of October, and then turn our attention for a period of four or five weeks in November and December to the economic situation of women.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We do have 22 meetings, by the way, between September and December. We could have 12 weeks dedicated to our work plan, because we have several reports, the pay equity and other reports, that will be coming back to us, I expect, by the fall with responses from the government, and we're going to want time to focus on that.

We have the minister coming in, so based on that, we have 12 meetings that we can be looking at to be focusing on both issues if we want to try to get something completed by the end of December. So we would take those 12 meetings and focus them in on the two issues we're trying to do.

Ms. Neville is next, and then Ms. Bourgeois, Ms. Davidson, Ms. Guergis, and Ms. Stronach.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll begin by apologizing for being late. I got caught in a telephone conversation, so I don't know what's been said.

We have a huge agenda to undertake, and my concern is that we do something real that makes a difference in the lives of Canadian women.

I was hearkening back, and I realized that many members who are here today were not part of the consultation process that went on last year, when we met with approximately 60 different women's groups across the country to try to prioritize what the issues were for women in Canada.

I don't know whether we received them...I haven't reread it, so I don't know, but I think it's important to go back to that. My own preference would be to try to focus on the whole issue of economic security. I think that encompasses so much for Canadian women and makes a difference to so many aspects.

We talk about the issue of trafficking. I listened to Ms. Mourani fairly carefully and she linked it back to the subcommittee that is looking at solicitation.

There is legislation in place, and I'm trying to think how one might deal with it. I looked at the list of witnesses put forward by members of the committee to deal with the issue of human trafficking, and it strikes me that while it's not unimportant that it's missing a whole component...if we're going on a global basis, we have nothing from Southeast Asia, Cambodia, the Philippines, and Thailand, where we know of the prevalence and brutality of human trafficking.

We have nothing here in terms of aboriginal young people. Today's headline in the Globe and Mail--and I haven't read the story--deals with the highway of tears in British Columbia. It has pictures of nine women who were brutally murdered.

I know in my own city I have met with a number of individuals, and I know the gang activity...well, it's really solicitation and prostitution that potentially moves into some aspect of trafficking, but it's growing, and it's growing in impact in the inner city of Winnipeg.

I would like to either do something small and concrete, that we look at the existing legislation and make some suggestions on how to improve the existing legislation, or we do a much broader consultation that includes the various other parties to trafficking, both at home and abroad.

It's part of the trafficking and prostitution issue, but we heard a great deal about the issues of violence against women, aboriginal women and all women, when we heard from the women's groups.

I would be very happy if we could come up with some concrete recommendations to the government, either in terms of service or potential review, although it's been studied to death and the studies are out there. That would certainly be a priority for me, to look at the whole matter of domestic violence and perhaps look at some of the links into trafficking.

I think the trafficking proposal that's here right now is broad but not broad enough. My suggestion would be to either narrow it much more or broaden it substantially.

I don't know whether that's coherent or not, but those are my thoughts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm a little nervous over what I'm about to say. Since we are sitting in camera, I'd like us to remember our mandate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We are not in camera at the moment.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

That's good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

No, it's only to make sure of this.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I don't wish to cast aspersions on anyone, but I would like to call to mind the mandate of our committee. If I'm not mistaken, fundamentally, our mission is to speak to the government for Canadian women. When representatives of CARAL and FAFIA came to see us five years ago, -- at least, they came to see me, as well as Judy Wasylycia-Leis from the NDP and some Conservative Party MPs as well -- they called for a status of women committee. These women were experiencing first hand a number of problems that they wanted brought to the government's attention.

While human trafficking is a problem that affects women, there are also other problems that typically affect Canadian and Quebec women and these cannot be ignored.

If we remember our mandate and what women's groups want, and if, as Ms. Neville was saying, we really want to do something tangible, we must use last year's consultations and the priorities identified by women's groups as a starting point. It's important for us to have that information at hand. That shouldn't be too difficult.

I see a representative of FAFIA in the room. I asked her which topic she'd opt to examine. Obviously, the economic security of older women would be a very interesting choice, because it ties in with all kinds of issues related to the status of women.

I remind you that last year's Subcommittee on Solicitation Laws couldn't come to an agreement. Moreover, the public perception of this committee was very negative because women's groups argued that certain problems affected all Canadian women. There was also the whole question of financial considerations associated with the committee.

What is it that we want as federal MPs representing Canadian women? There's no denying that solicitation is a serious problem, but perhaps we could hold off and focus our attention on the problems affecting all Canadian and Quebec women.

Furthermore, the new government has never made its position known on matters such as the economic security of older women. Hearings would give us the opportunity to ask our new government to state its position on the status of women and share its plans with us.

As we know, the Vice-Chair of this committee is a staunch feminist. Does she stand alone in advocating for women's issues? Women's groups are demanding protection and demanding to have their voice heard on issues of concern to them.

I'll say no more. It's up to you to decide, but you'll have to live with the consequences.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm looking at the clock, and we have about seven minutes. We can be very quick on a recap here.

I'm sorry that I'm looking at the clock.

We have Ms. Davidson, Ms. Guergis, and Ms. Stronach. After those three speakers, at that point, we are going to have to recap where we want our analysts to focus on over the summer.

Ms. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

I think we have a fairly comprehensive work plan here, and I commend the analysts for the job they've done.

I've listened with interest to what everyone else has said, and a lot of very good comments have been made thus far. I think the human trafficking issue is of great importance, and we need to be looking at that. I think it is an issue for Canadian women. I don't disagree with Ms. Neville when she says it either needs to be made a bit more concise or broadened. I would be more in favour of broadening it at this point.

I'm trying to be concise so everyone gets a chance, but I think human trafficking is very important; we need to be studying that along with the other issues on violence against women. We heard about issues those women face when we listened to NWAC, and they're not the only ones. It can be a common concern across the country.

The economic security of women is extremely important and, as it says here, “the economic security of senior women”. If we look at that first, we may need to look further, but we need to concentrate on “senior”. If we open it wide, we could be here for six months trying to get through that topic. It's huge. We'd be trying to bite off too much. We need to look at security for senior women to start with, and that topic may broaden in the spring. I'm not saying we don't need to look at it in other areas, but it's much too large to try to get done in the timeframe we have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Ms. Guergis.