Status of Women Committee on Dec. 5th, 2006

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Chair.

Hello everyone. Thank you for your testimonies. I would like to ask Ms. Ekberg some questions.

I have become very interested in the issue of peace among women in Sweden. I've looked all of it over a little, but there are still some things I am unable to visualize and understand, especially when it comes to the decriminalization of women. If I understand things correctly, soliciting has been removed from the law.

[Gunilla Ekberg]

This was never affected by the law.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Here, soliciting is a crime. Does removing soliciting from the Criminal Code help decriminalize women?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

I think there needs to be a law whose first objective is not to ensure law and public order. In Canada, the law against soliciting is designed to protect law and public order. The purpose of our law is to prove that prostitution is violence and that it is unacceptable to be a client.

I think it is a very good idea to remove soliciting from the law and to decriminalize women, modify legal principles and to adopt a law that criminalizes clients.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

The provision on soliciting only dealt with street prostitution. If we were to remove soliciting and solicitation and criminalize the client and maintain the provisions on procuring and bawdy houses, could it possibly have negative effects and solicitation be considered as public disorder? Could we have infractions related to the public order, such as disturbing the peace, for example?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

In our system, women are considered as victims of a crime. This means that they are entitled to leave prostitution, to receive aid and protection, have access to another form of employment, to an education, etc. This represents an entirely different way of thinking. These women are not criminals. They are in this situation because they were victims of violence and poverty before sinking into prostitution. We must look at this from another angle. These women are really victims of abuse.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I have no doubt about this, but we are dealing with a Canadian law. We are trying to amend the Criminal Code. I am trying to think along these lines and am unable to make a link with the public-order issue. Let me give you an example.

Every year, during the Canadian Grand Prix in Montreal, celebrations take place in downtown Montreal. I don't know if you've seen this. There are half-naked girls on cars, topless bars are exposing their merchandise on the streets, all of this in front of families, children, tourists, etc.

If we were to eliminate solicitation in Canada, what would happen? Will some 50 or 100 street prostitutes end up in these areas and "freak" people out who have children, etc.?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

Before this law was adopted, solicitation existed in Sweden. Ever since the police enforced this law, street prostitution no longer exists. If demand is addressed, there is nothing we can do for these women, who need to have access to support services to leave this environment. Unfortunately, this is not how things work, but it is important for the police to enforce the law with the clients.

It is also very important to examine all the agencies that are operated in full conformity with the law, such as escort services...

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

... and massage parlours.

[Gunilla Ekberg]

Exactly, because these places don't simply offer massages: they are brothels. Escort agencies are nothing but prostitution.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I am glad that you have raised this issue, because this was my other question.

Should these legal establishments be totally abolished and their owners considered as pimps? These establishments could be included in the section of the Criminal Code that deals with procuring and bawdy houses. In the definition, we need to include topless bars, etc.

[Gunilla Ekberg]

Absolutely. Canada is breaching its international obligations to this effect. For example, Article 6 of the Convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women clearly mentions that prostitution and female trafficking must be abolished. In all European Union countries, except where bawdy houses are legal, all these agencies are illegal. We know they are brothels.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

So the law clearly states that these places are illegal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I would like to thank every one of the presenters today. Your coming here has meant a lot. I want to commend you for your work in human trafficking. In committee, it's easy to tell the people who know what they're talking about. And every one of you do, so I want to thank you for that.

My first question will be directed to Mr. McIntosh. Could you please explain to this committee, if you were a trafficked person, what things you would tell this committee to help them with?

[Jamie McIntosh]

It's a very good question. Obviously, it could be somewhat presumptive for me to do this, lacking the interaction I've had with some of these individuals.

Through interaction with individuals who have been trafficked, specifically the ones we have rescued from some very horrific situations, I can say, first of all, that they are so grateful. I would imagine that they would be incredibly grateful that this committee is even focusing on this issue, because they're held against their will in places where they are crying out for any means of deliverance whatsoever.

I think the clearest thing is that they would simply say: “Help. Please help. Please, either empower us to be able to get out of this situation or to be able to in some way avoid being trafficked into these situations. Help us go after those who are preying upon our vulnerable sisters who are also being exploited and sometimes abducted, sometimes duped, into these situations. Go after those who are preying upon our vulnerabilities.”

They prey upon the vulnerabilities, both on the hopes and dreams side, where individuals, like all of us around the world, hope for a better life for ourselves, for our children. I have mothers who look at me and wonder about their daughters and wonder what will become of them if they allow them to go for that job in the city or across the border. They don't know what would happen.

It is a situation where these individuals are being violently preyed upon. It's not an issue of choice. They don't have the opportunity to actually require that the men would even wear condoms, so they're having diseases pumped into their systems. Many of these girls I've met are languishing. Now they're in their mid-twenties and they're dying. They're dying of HIV. They're dying of other diseases, and they have been just completely abused, and those hopes and dreams they once had have died.

The other side of it is that those who are in incredible economic desperation, who are, again, vulnerable, by running away from some forms of slavery they're trafficked into others.

So I think they would say, “Please help.”

I think a fundamental understanding has to be that it's not just poverty that is the root of this; there's a twin root. The other root I think is greed. As you look at it through the lens of the perpetrators, they are preying upon the vulnerable so that they can increase their revenue stream. It doesn't matter if it's legal or illegal, they will go after anyone they can exploit in whatever context whatsoever. We have to go after those who would violate the rights and the dignity of these women and girls.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you so much for your answer, because it's very consistent with what we've heard through witnesses on this committee up to this time.

I would also like to ask Sister Wilson and Sister Atkinson a question. I was very moved by your presentation, because I have worked with trafficked women, and you know exactly what's going on there.

I was very interested in what you said about the TRPs, because I totally agree with you, six months has to be.... The condition that these women are in mentally and physically, and the fear that's there...it really takes time. I think one of the things that has always baffled me is that police forces, as generous as they are, and they're trying their best.... You can't capture somebody or rescue somebody and then have them testify; it just doesn't work that way. I think there needs to be a better understanding of what it's like to be intimidated very violently. It has a lasting effect.

Right now, on this committee, could either of you answer what the most immediate concern would be, what we could do or recommend most immediately to help the women trafficked in Canada? You and I know they're there. I know some in Toronto. I know some in Sarnia. I know some even here in Ontario. There are very few places where they can go unless you have...and I really thank the NGOs and the churches, because those are places where people open their arms and allow them to come in.

Could you tell this committee what the most important thing is right now to help these people immediately, rather than waiting a year or studying it for the next five years? What can we do to help?

[Sue Wilson]

In our experience, there are a lot of trafficked people in Canada who are simply too afraid to come forward and ask for anything. The reason they're so afraid is because they're aware that there are no supports in place for them if they do so.

First of all, they need the assurance that if they come forward, they will not be forced to testify. Hopefully, they will come to the point--and everybody wants that--where they're ready to testify. But if people are forced to testify, they're just leaving one situation of control for another. It's not something they see a whole lot of hope in doing.

They need to know they will not be criminalized anywhere in the process. Obviously if they've been under the control of traffickers for varying lengths of time, they may have done many things that are technically criminal. They need to know they're not going to be criminalized.

They need to know there is support for making a transition. There are migrant workers who are clearly trafficked and yet far too afraid to come forward. If they come forward, they need to know there is a shelter available where they can get away. Yes, there are lots of shelters in Canada, but most operate at over-capacity, so for an influx of people, that's just not going to work. There need to be shelters where they know they can get away. That has to be a minimum.

The reason I said six months for the open work permit is because that's the minimum for being able to work. That needs to be an option. Obviously they may need some social assistance for the short term. People are ready, willing, and able to work. They want to make that transition, but they may need the supports to be able to do that.

Again, as I said, most people we have talked to simply can't imagine being able to recreate a life in their home country. There's the social stigma alone. In fact, in the refugee process, this has been identified as an element of persecution. It's very real for them. They can't imagine going back.

The presumption needs to be on being able to make the transition to life here. So job training, language training, and some short-term social assistance needs to be in place. With those kinds of supports, I think many more people will come forward, especially migrant workers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Ms. Wilson.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much.

I have a number of questions.

I would like to begin by saying thank you so much to Sue Wilson and Joan Atkinson. I know the work you do. I've seen it firsthand with refugees, migrant workers, and those people in our community who so very often are overlooked.

You mentioned that Canada is a wealthy country and that unfortunately we put up a lot of barriers for economic refugees who come here and consequently get caught up in trafficking.

I'm wondering what changes need to be made to our current immigration and refugee policies. I know I'm asking you a huge question, because I sense that many changes need to be made.

[Joan Atkinson]

Certainly for these women who are coming into the country through exotic dance visas...I think we have to provide other opportunities that would allow people from poorer economic situations to find employment when they come here. Also, I think the reassurance that there is hope that they could bring their families with them, either immediately or in the short term, is important.

I think there is the perception and the experience of many immigrants that the means to provide a good living for their family is not an adequate reason for coming to the country. We need to change that perception.

Canada needs a lot of employees in many, many areas. I think there are people who are willing to work hard and contribute to this country. That would help the situation they find themselves in, in their countries of origin. They have many skills that they can bring as well.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to direct my second question to Ms. Ekberg. You talked about women who live in unequal political, economic, and social situations in Canada, and it's something that we probably don't like to hear. You also made mention of the fact that aboriginal women seem to be particularly vulnerable to trafficking because they're marginalized, and there is a recognition that we've seen many victims, many of our sisters, victimized in this way.

I'm wondering if there are other groups. Are you aware of other groups who are particularly vulnerable to this kind of victimization within Canada, this place where we think we've achieved equality and clearly have not?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

I think anyone who is marginalized, specifically women who live in poverty, are extremely vulnerable to pimps recruiting them—because we have to remember the other end of it; it's the pimps who go to the communities.

I was just in Alberta, and we know that pimps go to the communities, the rural communities especially, where there are young women who can't find jobs, suggesting that they should come and be striptease dancers. Of course, that's a way to get them into prostitution.

Young girls who run away from their homes because their fathers, brothers, or other male relatives have sexually abused them always, I would say, if they're not very lucky, end up in prostitution, because buyers will pick them up and suggest that they should get somewhere to sleep and some food.

There are racialized women, women who come here, and of course then women who are trafficked here.

Another group of women who I worked with when I lived in Vancouver were Philippine women who came here on domestic worker visas. We were just starting a project then, because we had noticed that quite a few of those women ended up in prostitution. They were brought here for forced marriages, and then they were thrust into the massage parlours and escort services of Vancouver.

Poverty is not a cause, but poverty is a condition that makes women vulnerable. The cause is that men buy them, and the condition is what women live in.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I'd like to come back, if I could, to the Sisters of St. Joseph. In your brief you made mention of the lack of proper facilities, specifically housing. We know we have a national housing crisis in Canada, and it goes right across. Finding temporary appropriate housing for victims is a great difficulty. We know that some NGOs and religious groups have taken that upon themselves, but that would seem to be something quite extraordinary in terms of the cost and the ability.

Do you have any recommendations with respect to how housing could and should be secured for the victims of trafficking? What should we be doing as a larger community instead of depending on the religious community and NGOs?

[Sue Wilson]

I think there are different levels of being able to respond. For a very quick kind of response, and short term, something that could change tomorrow, if someone is coming to CIC to make an application for a TRP, there should be immediately something like a Red Cross voucher for shelter, so that if the person needs to get out of the situation they're in and get away to someplace where they're not going to be known, that can happen right away. Unless that's in place, people simply won't come forward and ask for it. So it's not that people are going to ask for it first and then you recognize the need; they simply won't come forward unless they know that security is in place.

Then I would say, in cities and centres where we know especially that there is trafficking happening—for example, with the migrant workers in southwestern Ontario—there should be shelter options in place. And yes, they do need to be funded by government. Religious communities can step in, in pockets, in certain places, but really that leaves all kinds of gaps all over. So that net kind of funding is crucial in order for there to be some kind of equitable access.