Status of Women Committee on Feb. 6th, 2007

[Gunilla Ekberg]

This is particular to Sweden. It is different from, for example, the Nepalese rapporteur. The Swedish government wants the national rapporteur to be situated at the national police for the particular reason that she would have insight into operational and intelligence work. Personally--and I think we both think this--it could have been better, in hindsight, to leave the rapporteur more independently outside the police force but with access, as she has, to confidential material and with the right to talk to whoever would be working in the office.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Are you saying that if the office were not tied to the police, it would not be as effective, but at the same time, it would lose some of its independence? Is that what you're saying? I'm just trying to see where it is situated.

[Gunilla Ekberg]

No, what I'm saying is that in hindsight, it probably would have been better to place the national rapporteur outside the police. Then you would be able to have research staff and you could have a more independent way of looking at things. But there are also benefits of being with the police, because she has direct access to the investigating police officers in the whole country and direct access to the investigation leaders, which are, in Sweden, the prosecutors.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Mr. Dandurand, did you want to say something briefly?

[Yvon Dandurand]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We already have a national coordination centre as part of the RCMP. If the task at hand was simply to collect police data, certainly they would be able to do that, but one must remember that in all countries, particularly in Canada, very few cases come to the attention of the police. In order to get a good understanding of what the situation is out there, the cooperation of non-governmental and provincial agencies is absolutely crucial. For that purpose, I would say it is essential that this rapporteur function be outside of government and also outside of law enforcement.

I will not confuse the issue. Most countries that have made a commitment to fight human trafficking have a reporting mechanism of one sort or another. Whether it's a statistics organization or a police organization, they all produce reports. What is specific about the national rapporteur is the fact that it is an arm's-length agency that is able to work both with non-governmental organizations to take care of all those sensitivities as well as with law enforcement. That's not to say it is a small challenge, but that is what is unique about having the national rapporteur.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

We now go on to Madame Deschamps.

Ms. Deschamps, for five minutes.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is more for those tuning in by videoconference. First of all, I'd like to welcome you, along with Mr. Perrin and Mr. Dandurand.

The establishment of a national rapporteur office has enabled you to acquire a certain amount of expertise and to compile a data bank. What impact has this initiative had on your country's mandate in this area? What impact has a national rapporteur had in terms of putting in place policies, mechanisms and resources? Has this helped to alleviate the problem?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

Kajsa and I have discussed it, and because my English may be a bit better, I will respond.

The national rapporteur has been in place for nine years. That means nine annual reports. Those reports are very central to how, first of all, the issues are perceived by the public and by the public authorities. So that's one. There's an increased awareness of the problem, which I can vouch for. It has gone quite quickly and has been quite educational for many who didn't know much about the issue.

Secondly, as to developed policies, the reports of the rapporteur are in fact central to many of the measures we have developed in Sweden when it comes to prevention and the prosecution of individual traffickers, the buyers of sexual services, and to a whole new understanding of the organized crime networks that are involved in this issue. We also, of course, now have numbers, statistics, and an understanding of who everyone is who is involved.

[Benjamin Perrin]

I have looked into the Dutch national rapporteur as well, and from what I've been able to tell, it seems that the first couple of reports really are about getting the government used to this sort of process. It didn't appear until the third or fourth report that a true national action plan had developed there.

There is a risk to creating a national rapporteur or any other independent commission. It allows the government of the day to say, “We're waiting for the national rapporteur”, and to throw its hands up saying, “We're waiting for the data and we can't decide unless we have the data.” One of the points I made last appearance was that we need to be making measurable steps now on areas we know are already quite a serious problem.

That said, as part of a longer-term strategy, this is a very good idea. I want to emphasize that the calibre of these reports that I've seen are quite good. They don't just give statistics. They try to reflect the modus operandi of the trafficker and try to explain the needs of victims. A lot of it is qualitative as opposed to quantitative data. It actually has proven to be quite valuable.

Very briefly, while our organization was working in Cambodia, we tried to do some of the data collection that we needed to target our efforts, and even in that situation we found it was invaluable. You can have far more effective programs if you have this kind of data coming in, but those programs don't need to wait for the third or fourth report before the government can act.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

There are 40 seconds left. You can make a comment.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have one quick comment. I'd like to know what advantage there might be to appointing a rapporteur on human trafficking, as opposed to setting up a national office.

[Benjamin Perrin]

Would you like me to address that, raise the office issue?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

Is this a question for us?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You will get an opportunity to give your wrap-up comments, but I have 15 seconds for Mr. Perrin.

[Benjamin Perrin]

When we first proposed the office, part of its function was intelligence gathering. This being before the committee, we think it would be a good complement. It allows you to reach out, as you've heard, to non-governmental organizations more effectively, and it would be more activist in its outlook because it is independent. It is able to push the envelope, putting out recommendations that may take a few years to gather steam, but at least they're getting out in the public domain. This is a function that could be either within an office...but you lose certain advantages to that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

We will now go to Ms. Smith for five minutes.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you. I know I have only five minutes, so I'm going to be very brief, because I'd like to share my time with my colleague Ms. Grewal. She has a question as well.

First of all, I want to thank everybody for coming. I really like the fact that you're so experienced and so involved.

I do have one question, and anyone can answer it. Maybe I'll start with the rapporteur first, Ms. Wahlberg.

Do you find that legalizing prostitution helps or hinders the human trafficking in countries across the globe?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

I have discussed it with my colleague here, and I will answer.

It's clear to us—specifically because the Swedish national rapporteur is in contact with police forces in most countries, including Germany, Holland, and in some cases Australia—that by legalizing the prostitution industry, you are creating a market for the traffickers, and the traffickers will go to where there is a market.

In Sweden, the prostitution industry is not legalized. In fact, we have criminalized the buyers of sexual services. We know that legislation acts as a barrier against the traffickers because it's more difficult to establish a market here. If you look at the reports that we have sent that the rapporteur has presented, she does in the two latest rapporteurs talk about what effects the legalization would have on it. We think that's a really big problem to do.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I'd like to pass my time to Ms. Grewal, because she has a question as well.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Perrin, your organization, The Future Group, in its March 2006 report, has been critical of Canada's dreadful past record on human trafficking. Other countries, including the U.S., Australia, Norway, Germany, and Italy, fared much better, receiving a grade of B+ or more, yet none of those countries, to my knowledge, have national rapporteurs.

In your opinion, how would appointing a national rapporteur here in Canada have an impact on our current failing grade; and would the establishment of this office give the best use of our resources?

[Benjamin Perrin]

You're right to frame it as a limited resources question. It would be far more effective to create an office within the government charged with both intelligence gathering and the implementation of programs that will directly help trafficking victims and apprehend offenders. That would be a better use of the time.

In the ideal world, you would also have a national rapporteur, but as you point out, those countries don't have that. Their intelligence-gathering functions, though, are extremely high and effective.

The one that I can mention—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Order. I would ask that we not have counter-discussions here, please.

Sorry, Mr. Perrin.

[Benjamin Perrin]

No problem. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Other countries, such as the United States, produce a very thorough assessment of the lay of the land, essentially, and they do so quite effectively. Organizations in Canada, as long as they are treated with respect, to be quite frank, and are reassured of confidences, could be able to work with an office within the government. So we don't totally lose the non-governmental sector's approach.

I just want to mention, too, that right now we're seeing some good cooperation with governmental agencies such as the CBSA and the RCMP, with front-line organizations in London and Windsor, for example, that are starting to work on these trafficking victims' cases in Canada. So it can work. From my understanding, the guidelines specify and really emphasize how important that is.

So I don't think the national rapporteur is the only answer at all. In fact, it's one alternative. But it would have to be with this office if it was going to work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You have one and a half minutes, if you wish to comment.