Evidence of meeting #46 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tax.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Okay. Our time is running out.
I really thank you for coming today. Your advice has been very insightful. We're anxiously waiting for the budget vote because we believe very strongly that the income splitting is a huge component. As you say, other elections have put a stop to things, so we don't want a stop happening here.
I want to ask a question about the unattached senior women. They seem to be just hung out there without any recourse. We can talk about pension splitting for couples, but would you have some more ideas around what could be done to assist the unattached senior woman?
Chairman, Georgian Bay Chapter, Canada's Association for the Fifty-Plus
I don't want to repeat myself, but I think there's a requirement for education, and in terms of the propagation of some of the situations we know exist, how do we offset that?
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
As Ms. Gorgeous said, or Ms. Guergis--it's a Freudian slip, she is gorgeous--the fact of the matter is that we have to take a look at some of these issues right now, and we have to look to the future as well. The income splitting is something that everybody, as you said earlier, would agree with. Right? But in regard to the unattached senior woman, basically, as Ms. Guergis said, the Status of Women did have the $5 million for programs that you could apply for, for those kinds of things, to help senior women. It might be of some benefit for you to know that today.
Is there anything else, other than the educational component, that you would...?
Chairman, Georgian Bay Chapter, Canada's Association for the Fifty-Plus
I believe that no matter what your status is in earning, at the bottom or near the top, you should have advice. Too often, it's the family member who is giving you advice. Too often, it's usually the male in the family who has the big say. I would suggest that at least once or twice in a lifetime you should have a financial plan at any age, and it should come from an authorized accountant, not an actual advisor who's selling you mutual funds.
The accountant might recommend who your financial advisor should be, but I think we don't use our professionals very well. Maybe we have to make a provision for people who are on the bottom rung so that they can get some advice.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you.
We will now go on to Madame Demers pour cinq minutes, s'il vous plaît.
Bloc
Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Once again, thank you, Messrs. Braniff and Wilson.
Mr. Braniff, you stated that you were 76 years old. That's a venerable age to continue fighting for ones brothers and sisters, for the people around us. I'm always amazed to see members of the older generation continue to fight for better living conditions and for a better quality of life for their counterparts and for people even older than themselves.
I'm not speaking as a politician, because I have no desire to engage in partisan politics. Do you not think that our government should have a long-term vision, one that extends beyond its four-year mandate -- or a one- or three-year mandate, in the case of a minority government -- in order to formulate a comprehensive policy for seniors that takes into account all of the factors that we have discussed?
Some older persons are in dire financial straits and they don't need an accountant to tell them so. Information sessions for these individuals would be pointless. They need money, more than $12,000 a year, because that income already puts them below the poverty level. Today, a low-income for a single person is pegged at approximately $16,000 or $17,000. And even that isn't much.
Shouldn't the government be formulating comprehensive policies to ensure that the people who contributed so very much to this country's wealth are given the respect they deserve and the opportunity to live out their remaining years with dignity? I'm thinking here in particular about veterans' widows. Some of them benefit from very good programs, but others are not so fortunate because they did not want to request government assistance, preferring instead to get by on their own.
I'm also thinking about the hundreds of people who need something much broader than mere pension splitting, especially when there is only once income.
Mr. Wilson, you stated that if two seniors each receive $30,000 and if one of them dies, the survivor will receive $45,000 in total, or half of his spouse's pension. However, if there is only one income, the survivor will receive only $30,000. We're talking about $15,000 in lost income. Shouldn't this whole issue be revisited?
I'm happy to see that Ms. Guergis requested income-splitting measures. It's a start. However, shouldn't governments work together and go even further?
Vice-President, Canadian Activists for Pension Splitting
If you're asking if there should be a comprehensive, coherent, long-range strategy that governments at all levels adhere to, absolutely. That only makes common sense. Is there the political will to achieve that? That becomes the issue and that becomes a political response. We would certainly support that kind of an initiative and that kind of a look into the future. We have to set targets. We have to know what the problems are. We have to plan for what we expect to evolve to as a society. Consequently, yes, I fully support that look ahead, that development of a strategy. I leave it up to the politicians to arrange how to do that.
Bloc
Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC
If you continue your lobbying efforts, that may happen one day. Because of your lobbying and your efforts to explain your ideas and views, you have succeeded in making known your views and position on this issue.
Chairman, Georgian Bay Chapter, Canada's Association for the Fifty-Plus
Lobbying--I'm not even sure I understand it, but I do understand one thing; we have to be able to have a win-win situation. You can undertake one thing at a time--it took me four years to do this, along with a lot of other people--and where do you want to put the energy? I would encourage you not to look at age as how long you've been around; just look at what you have to offer. We could plug in our seniors a lot more than we are to solve their own problems.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you, Ms. Demers.
We're now going to Ms. Mathyssen for five minutes.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
The subject of income splitting has come up, and I know there has been some consideration and thought given to it, so I did a little background reading. One of the things I discovered was that approximately 18.7 million Canadians live in families with two or more earners. These households couldn't take advantage of income splitting unless there was a great disparity in terms of the income of one spouse compared to the other. By contrast, 2.8 million Canadians live in single-earner families, and they're the ones, of course, who would be most likely to gain from income splitting. If you look at those incomes, if the family is making $36,000 a year or less, they'd save about $200, but if they're making $230,000 a year, they'd save $9,000. It seems that again we're into a real inequity. We have this proposal to fiddle with the tax system, and once we do, we discover that it benefits those at the high end far more than people who are at the lower end. It would cost about $5 million in government revenues to do that.
I'm wondering, would it make more sense to invest that $5 million in something that is more universal? If we're talking about families needing to have choices, choices with regard to extending employment insurance benefits, so there can be longer parental leave, so those families can benefit that way, or making sure there's a national child care system, so there is choice, where both partners wish to work and contribute and enjoy the benefits, they can....
I'm wondering if you would care to comment on that.
Vice-President, Canadian Activists for Pension Splitting
As far as CAPS is concerned, I must admit, this will sound like a cop-out response, and partly it's intended to be. CAPS addressed the issue of pension splitting and devoted its energy to the issue of pension splitting. It did not undertake the issue of income splitting because that's a bigger issue that would perhaps divert this particular one we're after. Therefore, we did not spend a lot of time analyzing the impact of the full income splitting. We concentrated on what the impact of pension splitting would be. I think I have to leave it at that.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
I'm sorry, I thought you made reference to it with regard to France and some other countries where they had income splitting.
Vice-President, Canadian Activists for Pension Splitting
I responded with what other countries did; I didn't say we would.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Another question. There are about five million caregivers, mostly women...and I had a young woman come to my office. She has an autistic son and virtually no income, except for a very small income that is connected with the support for that child, and she's absolutely determined that she be at home with that child because she can provide him with care that she regards as imperative to his development and his future success. As I said, there are about five million caregivers. Does the government need to put in some special policies to help those caregivers? As they age, in their senior years, they will be at a tremendous disadvantage.
Chairman, Georgian Bay Chapter, Canada's Association for the Fifty-Plus
Yes, you should have something in place, and you should have it in place when she is ready to re-enter the paid workforce, if that's her choice. I think there should be some recognition for caregiving. I don't know how you'd do that--I haven't investigated--but I'm sure if there's a will to look at this you'll find a way.
You mentioned income splitting versus pension splitting. I'm somewhat pleased to say that I'm the author of the words “pension splitting”, because I didn't see income splitting going anywhere. It was much easier for me to organize the three-million-plus on this pension splitting issue, primarily because everybody benefits. You don't have to be retired or approaching your seniorhood to understand that you're going to benefit from this someday. I look around this room, and I'm sure there aren't too many exceptions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Sorry, Ms. Mathyssen, your time is up.
We go to Ms. Smith for five minutes.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
I think today has been very beneficial in hearing a third-party approach.
Mr. Wilson, even though you said you haven't really addressed income splitting in any great depth, I think this conversation has still allowed us to open up some new ideas. I really like your focused approach. When you focus, you get things done, and then you can carry on to the next agenda.
When I asked Mr. Braniff earlier about the single senior woman, we ran out of time. I don't feel as if we have examined that thoroughly enough at the Status of Women. Perhaps, Mr. Wilson, you might have some comment on that.
Vice-President, Canadian Activists for Pension Splitting
I actually have the same observations that everybody else in the room probably does. It's a travesty to see people I know well--my mother, my mother-in-law--who are struggling, and the system only provides marginal help. I think the system has to target that particular group of people.
I'm not like Dan; I don't have a wonderful series of innovative solutions. But something has to be done.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you.
When you were making comments a little earlier and there was the suggestion that people could work when they receive a pension, were you referring to CPP as well? And you were talking about the internship. Mr. Braniff, please explain this internship concept. What age of women were you talking about, and how do you see that rolling out?
Chairman, Georgian Bay Chapter, Canada's Association for the Fifty-Plus
I would see internship beginning before 65. I think I could still take a little internship on a few things in life, but I think you want to get it as young as you can.
On internship, let me explain an example in the aboriginal environment, with the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business. We had an internship. We carefully selected an aboriginal lady, who had every qualification you could imagine. She was a star, but nobody knew that until we identified her. And doing this was difficult.
We put her in an internship with the CIBC for two years. The idea was that she would not stay in the bank. In that particular case, she successfully set up a credit union on Manitoulin Island. That was what we wanted.
Chairman, Georgian Bay Chapter, Canada's Association for the Fifty-Plus
She would have been in her twenties.
I would suggest that you apply this principle. Take a 58-year-old woman who has the stuff. Finding her is difficult, but it's not impossible. Use that as a test case. Make sure you gear it for success. I don't like losing propositions, even if they look very important and necessary. Look at what she can do. Set the model, and then I think you'll find it very easy to replicate.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
It's polishing the star that you were talking about a little earlier.