Status of Women Committee on May 10th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I will call the committee to order.

For the benefit of the witnesses, we have an outstanding motion from the last meeting and would like to bring it forth. We will try to be as expeditious as possible, and then we will go to the business at hand.

Ms. Minna, would you like to read your motion?

Thank you.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. It states:

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) that the Standing Committee on the Status of Women recommend to the government to immediately introduce proactive pay equity legislation as recommended by the 2004 federal Pay Equity Task Force and that the Chair report the adoption of this motion to the House without delay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

What I'd like to see is the committee's direction. Before I acknowledge anyone to speak, I want the committee's direction.

We have witnesses here. Can we limit this debate to 10 minutes? Would I have a consensus to limit this debate to 10 minutes?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay. So 10 minutes is what we will do. Whomever is speaking, I'll cut them off at 10 minutes.

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Yes, Madam Chair, I would like to speak to this motion, because we feel that pay equity is extremely important.

Going back to what happened during the previous government, we did study this. There was a task force, and there was a letter to Ms. Neville—who was at the committee at the time—from the Honourable Irwin Cotler and the Honourable Joe Fontana. They said in that letter, “the Report does not provide an adequate blueprint for implementation of pay equity in a broad range of federally-regulated workplaces”. And they also said, “Given the complexities associated with the implementation of proactive pay equity legislation, the Government”—the Liberal government at the time—“cannot, at this time, introduce federal legislation by October 31, 2005, without further study and consultation”.

We had agreed with that.

Also, the fact of the matter is that Irwin Cotler, the then minister, did say on November 21, 2005:

I want to emphasize that this proactive pay equity legislation, to which we are committed, must be drafted carefully in order to avoid the types of pitfalls that have continued to plague us under the current system. This will not be an easy task, given the need to determine the methodologies, the ways and means that are required for implementation of pay equity in a workplace.

This act cannot be drafted in one day.

I'm saying, as I said the other day, that our minister, our government, feels very strongly that pay equity is a huge, important issue. Our government looked at the legislation and wanted to take action immediately, because we agreed that this could take a very, very long time. So Canada's new government does recognize pay equity as a human right. Pay equity provisions have been in the Canadian Human Rights Act since 1977. And as I said the other day, the equal wage guidelines were enacted under the Conservative government in 1986, and this government remains a strong supporter of pay equity.

So what has happened, basically, is that the implementation plan has been put in place, using the legislation that is there. That's why we, on this side of the House, cannot support this motion, because we want things to move quickly and not to be held up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am supporting this motion by Ms. Minna because I think it's very important that we revisit the work of the pay equity task force. If any of the committee members have read this report, they will note that it sets out pay equity step by step; it's very, very clear, and very precise. And the plan they propose is very, very doable.

In terms of this committee, we've had witness after witness come here to talk about women who are in poverty. These women are working at a substandard level in terms of their wages and salaries. Last week we had a report from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives that, once again, verified that women and families are suffering because we haven't managed to make sure their incomes keep pace with inflation. The reality is that the affordability gap widens and widens.

This recommends proactive pay equity. What we have in this country is a complaints-based system that is litigious and requires individuals who don't have the benefit of unions to basically step out on their own. In a recent report from the labour unions in this country, they're saying, point-blank, there is absolutely nothing new in what the current government is proposing in terms of pay equity, that all the things they're talking about have been tried without any positive results.

We simply have to move ahead; we can't keep pedalling backwards. It's time for proactive pay equity now, and this government needs to move on it. We've been waiting too many years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I know that Ms. Smith read extensively from a letter from Mr. Cotler and Mr. Fontana, the former Minister of Justice and the former Minister of Labour and Housing. However, there is another part to this letter that is also very clear. It says:

Therefore, the Government is developing substantive proposals for legislative reform and will work closely with stakeholders through this process. The Minister of Justice and the Minister of Labour and Housing will appoint an impartial facilitator to lead discussions with major stakeholder representatives. These representatives will discuss the Government's proposals related to the above-mentioned four issues, and will consider alternatives that respect basic principles related to pay equity. Drawing on these discussions, the Government will consider a range of methodologies and processes in implementing pay equity reforms and will work towards introducing a bill on pay equity by late 2006 or early 2007.

Presumably there were some instructions left at the department. We had made a commitment that there would be in fact proactive pay equity reform legislation tabled in Parliament either by late 2006 or early 2007. This is 2007 and you've done nothing. The current government's response is that they wish not to go in that direction. I guess what I'm saying is that with respect to the current system, however well meaning or however many more people are assigned to enforce it, the fact of the matter is it doesn't work. It's been there for 35 years and there are litigations that have been going on for 25 years. It isn't going to work.

The letter concludes with:

The Government is committed to effective and efficient proactive pay equity reform.

That commitment was there and was made by the two previous ministers. The former Prime Minister made it public towards the latter part of 2005, clearly stating that he intended to introduce proactive pay equity legislation. Given the fact that there really are two diverging directions here in terms of this, I would like to suggest, Madam Chair, that we are not going to change pay equity for women in this country unless we in fact embark on a proactive legislative process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Ms. Minna.

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

With the greatest of respect, the motion speaks to the need to produce this proactive pay equity legislation quickly, saying “without delay”, “immediately introduce”. By the minister's own words--this was Minister Cotler at the time in a joint letter--he was very clear, given the complexities associated...and I should say this is in the fourth report to the Standing Committee on the Status of Women from October 5:

the Government cannot, at this time, introduce federal legislation by October 31, 2005, without further study and consultation.

There's an admission here that in order to.... I'd be the first to suggest that all government legislation is in need of review from time to time. It needs to be updated. Sometimes there are things with which you find glitches and you have to update it. The fact of the matter is we have pay equity legislation. The minister has been clear in his commitment to implement proactive measures to make sure that the pay equity legislation we do have is being implemented and that workplaces are required to move forward on these. He's backed that up with 100 or more inspectors right across the country to make sure that the existing legislation is being implemented properly.

We can debate this until the cows come home, but really, when it's all said and done, what the member is asking here, this rather immediate proactive pay equity legislation, defies the very recommendations of the previous government's minister on this topic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Minna, did you have a final comment?

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Yes, Madam Chair. It's just to say that I appreciate that Mr. Stanton is saying that they said in 2005 they were not ready, but the point I made is very clear. Both ministers also said they would be ready by late 2006 and 2007, after having consulted with stakeholders, who would have assisted the government in actually drafting the legislation.

The election was lost, and obviously the current government wasn't going in that direction, so a year and a half in fact has been lost. We do have different objectives, obviously, but on the comment that we do have pay equity legislation, yes, we do, but as many people have said, it's complaint-based, not effective, and not proactive.

This is a clear commitment from the previous government to say that we would, by late 2006 or early 2007, have proactive new legislation introduced. The preliminary work wasn't done in the last year and a half because of different positions, and obviously there won't be any. What I'm trying to do is rectify the situation and get back to a situation where we in fact are working towards proactive pay equity legislation once more.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

We're coming to the end of the time. We have presented a few reports, and we've received responses from different ministers. We tried to get the ministers to come before us.

I am not making any suggestions, but would it help us if we had the ministers before us? We all want to work to ensure that pay equity comes.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Yes.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

That's a great idea.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay, call the motion then.

I can't, but whoever wants to call the vote can.

Go ahead, Ms. Minna. You can call the vote.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

That's what I was suggesting we have a vote on. I think we have—

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I like your suggestion. I think all of us around the table are definitely in favour of making sure pay equity happens. For goodness' sake, I think a lot of us have experienced the inequities ourselves. The difference is that on our side of the House we're saying let's not take three years to do legislation. The legislation is there. The minister is pushing it forward and trying to make it happen, because prior to that there was no implementation plan.

As for the argument that we were going to do it quickly on the eve of the death of the government before the election, with all due respect, there were 13 years in which to do it. I think everybody around this table believes that pay equity should be put in place. So I would suggest that before we move with this motion, we ask the minister to come and talk specifically about pay equity and the legislation, rather than holding anything up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay. I'm at the will of the committee, and if the committee would like to call the vote, it's the committee's prerogative and not mine. I would like to have the question--

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

A point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Yes, Mr. Stanton. Our 10 minutes are up. I had decided to give 10 minutes, and I shouldn't even have given you an option, but I was just trying to see if I could balance things out.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Correct me if this is procedurally incorrect, but I'd like to move that we continue on with other business and leave this matter pending—

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Sorry, the meeting is still on, with all due respect, and we will continue with the meeting and that result.