Status of Women Committee on Feb. 7th, 2008

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I wholeheartedly agree.

I'll give the rest of my time to Madame Grewal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Grewal.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ministers, for your time and your presentations. We truly appreciate that.

My question goes to Minister Finley. Last week the citizenship and immigration committee, of which I am a member, considered Bill C-17. During the meeting, Liberal member Mr. Jim Karygiannis scoffed at the small number of women being protected by this bill. He seemed to think that passing a bill that in his mind only concerned a “very minimal number of people” would be wrong. He implied that such a very minimal number of women, regardless of their vulnerability to trafficking or exploitation, was unworthy of protection under Bill C-17.

Could you please respond to Mr. Karygiannis' criticism?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I firmly believe--and I suspect and certainly hope this committee feels the same way--that if even one woman is trafficked, that's one too many. Absolutely. That's why we need laws that will help to protect them. We don't have that many right now, so we're trying to put forward Bill C-17 and maintain flexibility in the legislation we do have.

There is a private member's bill before the Senate, as we speak, that would reduce the flexibility we have to address human trafficking. I mentioned earlier how we extended the TRPs from 120 days to 180 days. If the Senate bill that's before the House now had passed, we would not have been allowed to do that. We would not have had the flexibility through ministerial powers to extend that protection period.

We need to be flexible in our response, because we're still learning, as is the world. We want to be able to be responsive to the needs as we identify them. So I think we have to make sure we protect these women and children. They are vulnerable individuals. It doesn't matter how many or how few, they all deserve our protection in this country.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

My next questions are for Mr. Nicholson.

How big is the problem of trafficking in persons worldwide? To what extent does this crime occur in Canada? How exactly do Canada's laws protect against trafficking in persons?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you very much for those questions.

They are certainly clandestine operations, so we can only estimate. We know it's a particular problem in a number of Asian countries, such as Cambodia, Thailand, and Vietnam. There are well-documented cases of human trafficking in eastern Europe, and to a certain extent of course in Africa.

On who these victims are, the International Labour Organization estimated that 98% of the people who are victims of this crime are women and girls. That's not too surprising. But as Madam Neville said, it's not just confined to the trafficking of individuals in this country. We know there are many instances of aboriginal women being exploited as well.

Canada, as you may know, has a comprehensive set of criminal laws that deal with just about every aspect of this. They're complemented by other sections, not just the trafficking sections alone. Certainly the assault and victimization provisions within the Criminal Code complement our approach to this.

So it's a major problem that's been identified by this committee and others. As I indicated to one of your colleagues, recognition that this is not just a Canadian problem but a worldwide problem will help in combatting this. It's a major problem throughout the world and we are addressing it. I believe there's a comprehensive set of laws within the Criminal Code to deal with it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Minister. I didn't cut you off this time.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Good. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Madame Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Good day, ministers. Thank you very much for responding to the many questions of concern to this committee.

Each time a major event takes place, like the Olympic Games, the World Cup or an automobile race, statistics show that the incidence of prostitution increases. As the countdown to the Vancouver 2010 Olympic Games continues, we have learned that the Vancouver authorities and certain groups in favour of legalized prostitution are already floating an idea to establish a legal brothel that would be run by female prostitutes.

Proponents of the idea argue that a legal brothel would help to ensure the safety of female prostitutes. These groups would dearly like to convince the current government to skirt existing laws on a trial basis and allow a legal brothel to operate.

Is the government aware of these plans? Have your departments already been contacted by the proponents of this project? If they have, I would be curious to know where you stand on this matter, or how you plan to deal with this suggestion.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes, we are aware of suggestions of that. There was a subcommittee that produced a report in the spring of last year on solicitation. In addition, Ms. Minna raised the matter with me. I was outside the seven minutes then and couldn't reply, so I would like to address it now.

To be very clear, Madame Deschamps, the government has no intention of legalizing brothels in this country. We have no intention of legalizing the other aspects of prostitution. I can tell you that the constitutionality, among other things, of a number of the laws relating to prostitution in this country is before the courts of both British Columbia and Ontario. Government lawyers are vigorously defending the constitutionality and validity of those pieces of legislation. I hope I'm clear on that.

I have a very large crime-fighting agenda. You've seen it in Parliament. I often say to my colleagues that if we can get through the legislation we've introduced that's presently before this Parliament, we will be just getting started fighting crime. I can indicate to you very clearly that legitimizing or legalizing street soliciting or brothels is not part of our agenda.

At the same time, I agree with those individuals about vigorous prosecution of the individuals who exploit other individuals, or who are the customers--sometimes referred to in English as johns. I don't know what they're called en français. I agree with all laws and all efforts made to get those individuals who are in the position of exploiting other individuals. I hope that has cleared it.

Thank you.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

If I could address the part of the question about an increase in prostitution, it seems to be a fact around major events like this. Whether in Germany or at various Olympic events, in terms of the actual act of illegally transporting people to the events--we're talking here about the international human trafficking itself--we don't see a significant uptake there. I think people are worried because they know, quite rightly, there's a huge focus against that.

As far as the activities themselves, they can increase. We've heard about domestic trafficking, and organized crime groups will stake out their territory. That gives us an opportunity, because the organizers and the exploiters come out of the woodwork a bit and can be pursued. That's why I appreciate the emphasis in the legislation on going after those who are exploiting.

So we see it on the domestic side, just like you see crimes like pickpocketing going up, and break-ins of automobiles. There are certain crimes that go up during those times.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

The committee's report on human trafficking contained one recommendation calling on the government to create the position of national rapporteur. The government's response to the report makes no mention of creating such a position.

Can we expect the government to follow through on this recommendation?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Working through the RCMP, we have set up an office to deal with the issue of human trafficking. Recommendation 18 of your report calls for the creation of the position of rapporteur. We have an office and staff who are responsible for communicating with other departments and for coordinating their efforts in this area.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Is this office in touch with the many different departments working to combat the problem of human trafficking?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Yes. The communication aspect is very important. The office has forged ties with 18 or 19 departments in so far as training and the dissemination of information is concerned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I have a question about temporary workers and live-in caregivers. We've heard that this government is very concerned about fighting crime and wrongdoers, but the truth is that these temporary foreign workers and live-in caregivers are often the most exploited workers in Canada. That happens under the current rules; there's simply not enough protection there. I'm wondering if the government is planning to make the necessary changes to these programs to both recognize the importance of the work and also ensure the rights of the workers so they cannot be exploited and, in some cases, brutalized and made victims of trafficking.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There are a number of aspects to this issue. It is a very serious one. Often people—the temporary foreign workers, the live-in caregivers—come here from another country to fill these jobs. They're brought here under false pretence by some unscrupulous immigration consultants.

Our goal is to make sure these temporary foreign workers, whatever role they're playing, know their rights, for starters. This is why, when they arrive and we give them the work permits, they are told what their rights are. They are counselled in their home country as to what their rights are and what they can expect when they get here. Under Canadian law, they must be treated the same as any Canadian-born worker would be treated, in terms of work conditions, wages, and labour rights. All the same rules apply to them. It's incumbent upon the employers to live up to those obligations.

That being said, HRSDC is working with the provinces to develop enforcement. We've made a commitment as a government to work on this aspect with the provinces, because after all, each province has its own legislation dealing with labour law, to make sure there is enforcement, awareness, and follow-up. It would be up to the Minister of HRSDC to provide you with further details on that.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Can I just get in on that one, too, Madam Chair?

I think it's important to emphasize the point that Ms. Finley talked about, which is the education part of helping these individuals find out what their rights are before they get to the country, and to make them aware of the rights they have. There are extensive sections within both the Criminal Code and the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act against forcible confinement, human trafficking, and of course assault and all the different aspects of it. So the laws are in place, and part of the challenge we have is to make sure those individuals who can benefit from the provisions in both those pieces of legislation are aware of the protections they are entitled to by working in Canada.

Of course, from my end of it, we support all those efforts to make sure they are aware of their rights. So it's important they have that, but the laws are there.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Well, there still seems to be a gap, because it's persisting.

I want to go on to something else.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You're right, assaults can persist in this country, but we have laws on the books against assault. They don't necessarily stop it, and we can get into that discussion, but I can tell you that there are extensive laws in both those pieces of legislation that deal with forceable confinement, kidnapping, assault, and all the different aspects. Now if there are specific suggestions on either the Criminal Code or the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act that you or others want to make, we would always consider them. But again, I think we have a comprehensive regime.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you. I will take you up on that offer.

I wanted to pursue something else in regard to the fact that not a single person, at least as far as I'm aware, has been successfully prosecuted for the offence of trafficking in persons. I wonder if I am correct. Is this still the case? And why hasn't anyone been prosecuted, if that is indeed the case?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I have some information on this that may be of interest. Canada ratified those Criminal Code provisions in 2002. It was reported in the United States-Canada Bi-national Assessment of Trafficking in Persons that from the spring of 2004 to February 2006, there were at least 25 convictions under various Criminal Code provisions for trafficking activity. A review conducted by my officials in the spring of 2007 identified an additional five convictions in the previous year. As we know, the 2005 trafficking offences are now being used by our police.

Again, it's not perfect, Ms. Mathyssen, and I'm aware of that. Again, we have to make sure that these laws work and that they are effective. Again, we take the area very seriously.

I hope that gives you a bit of background on this particular area and on those related charges.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Mathyssen, you have half a minute. Nobody will be able to respond, so can I just move on?