Status of Women Committee on Feb. 7th, 2008

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

The Centre concerns itself with issues relating to human trafficking. Officials work to develop a network with other departments and to work in partnership with them. The Centre works with 18 other departments and border agencies to provide information and coordinate training efforts. The Centre also provided $240 million for the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics for the purpose of developing an information network on human trafficking. These are some of the responsibilities carried out by the Centre. When a committee such as yours does a study or produces a report, the Centre examines it and determines how many recommendations can be or have already been implemented in order to continue waging the battle against human trafficking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Madam Chair, just continuing with Minister Day, one of the topics we discussed at some length in the course of this study on human trafficking was the role of police services and law enforcement officials in adapting to the sorts of changing circumstances they were being faced with at the community level.

Could you expand a little further on some of the things that are happening in terms of helping police to recognize and cope with this new reality that they're seeing at the community level?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Well, on the budgetary side, just within the RCMP themselves, $1.35 million out of this last budget was directed specifically to the area of training.

There are some things they have to be sensitive to. For instance, with some of the cases that my colleague has mentioned, you'll have a case where, thankfully, somebody either escapes the clutches of someone who is exploiting them or they are freed from that in some way, and one minute they're willing to testify and then later on they have great fear and concern and they may not be willing to testify. The officers need to be sensitive to a person who is a victim, who is trapped, yet is so afraid of testifying that the valuable evidence they need to go after the perpetrators becomes elusive.

That's just one aspect of the proper type of training and sensitivity that goes into not just RCMP officers, but border officers, immigration officers--the ability to encourage victims to come forward, to let them know they will be safe, that there will be protection.

Among the recommendations from this committee, recommendation 27 talks about the witness protection program. There has to be an assurance given to the potential victims that they will be protected. That's why there's a collaboration right now with Crime Stoppers across the country to continue to develop a program that has an outreach component to it, so that somebody who is a victim on the domestic side or someone who's been brought into the country will become aware that there is help for them.

That's a message we want to get out to them. And knowing that helps them to come forward with the valuable information that also helps us to go after the perpetrators.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Minister Day.

We now go to Madame Demers.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Day, you spoke at length about police officers who would be hired to deal more effectively with human trafficking. You also talked about a change of policy within the RCMP. In recent years—and the Robert Pickton case in Vancouver comes to mind—police action has come up woefully short, and that is especially true of the lack of credibility given to persons making accusations.

Have you succeeded in bringing about a change of attitude at the RCMP under the organization's new leadership? A policy change does not necessarily mean a change of attitude.

Have you raised this particular problem with the new RCMP official? What is standing in the way of a change of attitude on the part of police officers who deal with these problems? They are the ones who deal first hand with the victims of human trafficking or prostitution in Canada. Victims of prostitution are often poor and have children to raise. They have no other option available to them. What steps to you intend to take to bring about a change of attitude on the part of police officers toward these individuals?

I have one final request before I run out of time. Could you provide us with copies of the documents you have prepared to date? You mentioned posters, pamphlets and binders.

Thank you.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you for your questions.

I would just like to comment briefly about the attitude of the men and women of the RCMP. I have met with detachments on a number of occasions and I have patrolled the streets with officers. RCMP officers across the country are very concerned about the crime problem, especially crime involving young persons and victims of human trafficking. Officers are very compassionate and attuned to this problem.The men and women of the RCMP have children of their own and are worried about the rising crime rate. It is not a matter of getting them to change their attitude. I know for a fact that they are concerned about crime and want to protect the weak and young people, especially those who are vulnerable. I could tell you about several cases where officers stepped in personally to help a young person caught up in some criminal activity.

We are going to see some changes in the RCMP administration. Mr. Brown has put forward some recommendations calling for a different system. Shortly, I will be announcing the creation of a board to implement these recommendations. Given the complaints against the RCMP, it is important for us to have an open, transparent system, one in which complaints against the RCMP will be investigated by independent parties.

We can expect some significant changes. Let me say again that RCMP members are very focused on their communities.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

May I ask who provides training to RCMP officers in the area of human trafficking? Who is supplying the expertise?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Groups works with police officers and civilians in a number of countries. Information is always being exchanged. They acquire experience in the field by working with victims and with community groups that work with victims.

As you mentioned in your report, they must continue to learn and to listen to these groups. The work is never-ending. Unfortunately, they have much to learn, especially about human trafficking, but they are more than willing to acquire the tools to do their job more effectively.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to the last questioner, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a multi-tiered question.

One of the things we've been talking about is addressing what is essentially a horrific situation and a horrific problem. We don't even know what the numbers are. There's no way of gauging it, no way of actually finding out how many victims there are.

It was said here that we can't tell other nations what to do with respect to the victims of trafficking, but we can address the trafficking that we know exists domestically. It most certainly does exist here, particularly among aboriginal women and girls. They are the most vulnerable.

We've talked about prosecution and prevention. I'd like to focus a little more on prevention and the things we can do, because we're not helpless. We can do some things in this country in regard to that, and I think through the social structures.

For example, we know about poverty. The report is very clear that while we can't necessarily address the demand for sexual exploitation, we can address poverty, and through a number of ways.

For example, one in six children in this country is growing up in poverty, and they become much more susceptible to the realities of poverty and to the wish to escape that poverty through one means or another. Those children are from homes where there are single moms who don't have access to child care and can't escape the poverty trap. We know that only 30% of young women who contribute to unemployment insurance are able to collect it when they are out of work. We know that self-employed women are not eligible to collect unemployment insurance. We know that there is a housing crisis in this country, yet we have no national housing strategy.

It seems to me that some of the solutions in terms of prevention are here. I'm wondering what this government is prepared to do to make sure there truly is a secure child care system that moms and young families can depend on; so that there is a national housing strategy; so that there is help when people are unemployed; so that those one in six children aren't so vulnerable; so that those women are not so vulnerable and aren't susceptible to the enticements of the predators we know are out there.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

It's very important that everyone have the opportunity to escape the poverty trap. You're absolutely right, Ms. Mathyssen, when you say that poverty is one of the contributors to human trafficking and to the vulnerability, particularly of women, to being trafficked. We all want to prevent that, absolutely.

As a government we've taken a number of steps to help alleviate the poverty situation, first of all in trying to help people get good jobs. To do that we need to have a strong economy. We have been providing a number of forms of assistance to business, both large and small, because it's small and medium businesses that create 75% of the new jobs. We've provided incentives to help them be more competitive in a world market.

We've provided a universal child care benefit to parents so that they're not locked into a formal child care system. They can opt into it if they choose, but they'll have assistance to get the form of child care that best meets their needs. We've provided millions of dollars to the provinces to help them create formal child care spaces, so that young women can get into the workforce.

We've introduced the WITB, the working income tax benefit, to help people get over the poverty threshold that sometimes keeps them on welfare instead of becoming productive in the workforce.

We've provided education assistance to students in universities and colleges and have encouraged them, through incentives, to get skilled trades and get the education they need to earn a good living for themselves.

We've introduced EI reforms to extend eligibility but still encourage people to work.

We are spending more money on affordable housing to help these individuals who have low incomes than has ever been spent before.

So we're doing a lot to help ease the poverty situation that can contribute so significantly to human trafficking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much.

I will be giving you each about a minute and a half to do a summation.

I'd like to thank the three of you, on behalf of the committee, for being here. It's a critical issue. When we did the study of human trafficking, all committee members felt it was an issue that demanded that we take some very critical actions.

The women who are being trafficked, who come through any form, whether they come in as nannies or as live-in caregivers or as exotic dancers, are all very vulnerable, and these vulnerable women seek protection.

We need some clarification on some of the statements the ministers have made here. If they come in and they never testify against their perpetrator, how can the justice system be made to function?

Minister Nicholson, I think we need some clarification on recommendation 6. Basically, what the committee had stated is that there are trafficked women who come here, who may be put into prostitution, and the john may claim, when he goes to court, that he never knew this was a trafficked woman. When we heard the evidence, that's where the critical issue was.

Recommendations 6 and 7 stated that we would like the trafficked woman not to have a criminal record but that the john have a criminal record. Perhaps it requires a lot more discussion than that, but could you give a response to that?

And Minister Day, we had asked in recommendation 17 that we have evidence collected centrally so that everyone can access it. For the justice system to work effectively, you need to have all the information. So in your summation, if you could, just give us a brief update, and then we'll thank you for being here.

Minister Nicholson.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to join with my colleagues to talk with you about a very important subject.

I am, of course, among those...anyone who purchases, for starters, sexual services.... It is against the law in Canada; it should be vigorously enforced in the country. Any time you attack the consumer of any product or service and you reduce the business itself, then of course we'll suffer, if we can call this terrible situation that.

But again, of course, with respect to those individuals who are in the business of trafficking, I believe there is a comprehensive set of laws within the Criminal Code and the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act that deal with individuals who coerce, exploit, molest, confine, or assault individuals. And of course that is as it should be.

I am encouraged by a number of initiatives that we are doing. As Ms. Mathyssen said, we can't tell other countries what to do, but we certainly can work with other countries. As I indicated to you in my opening remarks, the United Nations has made efforts to provide manuals to assist individuals who are in the business of law enforcement, judges, prosecutors in other countries.

I told you of one pilot project that I'm particularly interested in, which is this country helping individuals to get legislation on the books that helps in this area. Canada can be of great assistance in that. I'm very much looking forward to those initiatives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Minister Finley, for a minute, please.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you very much.

Before I sum up, I would like to clarify a point. I may have misspoken earlier when I talked about Bill S-218. It is a private member's bill that's before the Senate to put into law what we already have in regulation. I just wanted to clarify that for the record, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank you and the committee once again for having us here today. This is an important issue to you. Obviously, it's an important issue to our government. I think it's almost unprecedented to have three ministers appear before a committee at once, so it shows you the emphasis that we place on this issue, the fact that all three of us are here today.

It is important. We are taking steps in the right direction. There's no question we need to do more. We're trying to do that to help combat human trafficking. I would therefore urge each and every member around this table to come out and block Bill S-218, because it will needlessly impair the ability of the government to respond to changing needs in combatting human trafficking, but also to support Bill C-17, which will help us protect vulnerable foreign workers, particularly women and children.

I'd ask you, as members of the committee, to take these actions and to also urge your caucus colleagues, your colleagues on the citizenship and immigration committee, your colleagues in the House, and your colleagues in the Senate to take action on these two bills.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

It will have to be very brief, Minister, because we have the other committee here.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the committee.

You have already had an impact on the efforts of our law enforcement officials to combat human trafficking.

You've already accomplished that.

I'd just say briefly to Ms. Mathyssen--and we've corresponded on a number of issues, which I appreciate, or to any committee members--if you have a situation in which you hear of something that happens at the border, and there's a possibility of somebody at risk of human trafficking, and it didn't go as you would have hoped, please get that information to me.

On your direct question, Madam Chair, it is important to coordinate and get the right kind of information. That's why we've given $240,000 from Public Safety to the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics. That's just one of a number of ways we have to get the right information.

I'll just close with the thought that we have—and I know this is your message—a dual message here, the message to those who are victims: there are people who will help you. There are people who will protect you. We want to get you out of the clutches of those predators, and we extend that to you. And that will be across the country.

And to the predators and the perpetrators: I can't think of many things more despicable than somebody enslaving another human being. It is hugely ironic that on the 200th anniversary of the abolition of the slave trade we would have to be looking at people who still want to enslave others.

We will stand with you in that great task to put an end to that through legislation, being tough on the perpetrators and the predators, and through education and prevention, reaching out so that we can have indeed a society and a country where people are truly free.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you all. Thank you very much for being here.

The meeting is adjourned.