Status of Women Committee on Feb. 26th, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Minna, for one a half minutes or two minutes.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay. I'll try to be very quick.

I have two questions, and maybe the first one is not fair. I wonder what you think of the idea of having a commissioner--call it something else--who would report to Parliament about once a year on how we're doing with GBA in this country. I think that would be an interesting report to see. That would keep all of us on our toes. I want your reaction to that.

On the other, I've just flipped through “The Gender Equality Indicator Project” here, and I wonder if you could tell the committee whether there are dedicated resources for this project, specifically dollars for full-time employees and the intended outcome of the project. Is there a specific outcome? It doesn't indicate here what it is. It's generic. How will these indicators be used and by whom? It's good, but it gives the framework; it doesn't give much else.

[Hélène Dwyer-Renaud]

With respect to “commissioner”, I think in some of the international materials we sent you there's a review of the different infrastructures around the world. Some have commissioners, some do not. It's a worthwhile suggestion to study and look into. It seems to work in some areas and not in others. I'm not an expert on that; I couldn't tell you, but I think it does exist in some countries.

On the indicators project, again it would be good for you to have this more in-depth briefing. Right now our concern is having a set of indicators to help us determine progress in terms of Status of Women and priority setting in the future. Whether it will do anything else in the future has yet to be discussed. We're taking it one step at a time. We're also looking at other countries. As I said, there's a major project at the Commonwealth. We seem to be having good discussions around the table with departments. You can imagine that with the Commonwealth doing it across countries.... They are huge projects to undertake. They take time to discuss and to make sure that we're picking the right indicators. You want an instrument that is sound, that can give you evidence-based policy information, and not an instrument that is simply to give good or bad news. There's a lot of discussion of those kinds of elements, which we're just starting to do right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

To follow up on what Ms. Minna asked, who is the lead at Status of Women Canada on this gender equality indicator project, so the clerk can contact them to come before the committee?

[Hélène Dwyer-Renaud]

It's a staff member of the directorate of policy. We'll provide the name to the clerk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay.

Mr. Stanton, for five minutes.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for joining us again on this discussion in regard to gender equality as it relates to budget.

First of all, how long have you been with Status of Women Canada? We may have been provided with this earlier, but how long have you been involved with this organization?

[Hélène Dwyer-Renaud]

That's an interesting question. This is my third time at Status of Women Canada. I've been in the public service for 27 years, and I've basically always worked in women's issues. Throughout my ins and outs, I think I've been at Status of Women Canada for about 15 or 20 years, something like that.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

And you have had experience in other departments as well?

[Hélène Dwyer-Renaud]

Yes.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

What are some of those other departments?

[Hélène Dwyer-Renaud]

I have worked with HRSDC. I've done some work with royal commissions. I've worked with a past royal commission on new reproductive technologies. It wasn't a royal commission; it was a panel on violence against women. I've also been with the Public Service Commission.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

In your opinion, as you've watched the evolution of how the gender-based issues analysis or lens has been applied in terms of decisions to improve and roll out tax measures or program measures, how would you say the government and the departments are responding now, compared with, say, three or four years ago?

[Hélène Dwyer-Renaud]

I think we had that discussion the last time we were here. There has been great progress, when you think of it in terms of the whole notion of GBA being accepted across the board. I think that is no longer a discussion. I think the GBA policy is raised and understood by most public servants who deal in policy—I mean, we don't deal with 265,000 people.

The capacity building is picking up. There, we still have some work to do. But we have some key departments. You're looking at departments like Health Canada, HRSDC, CIC, and the central agencies. The momentum of capacity building is building.

The future for GBA practice is at three levels. One is the accountability. It has started, but it has to be built. It has to answer questions such as, if there are guidelines, if the finance department feels that departments need to do X, Y, and Z, are departments doing X, Y, and Z? So there's that kind of monitoring of the practice that needs to happen.

To do that, we have to do an evaluation of the situation, which is what we are starting to do with our comparative analysis, but that's a situation that all governments are facing right now.

There was a thrust over the 1980s and 1990s for lots of training and capacity building. That was the case for Status of Women Canada. Between 2000 and 2005, we put a lot of our energy and effort into capacity building and creating our tools. Now we have to put the theory into practice. The past was almost, in one sense, capacity building for everyone. Now we have to move into sustainable practice, accountability, and evaluation.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Would it be fair to say that the notion of gender consideration in terms of the decision-making process at the departments is ingrained and now a part of the culture of this decision-making?

[Hélène Dwyer-Renaud]

I don't think it's there yet. The practice is there. Senior management knows that there is a practice going on, but does it make it through to the decision-making process? That's uneven, depending on the support that's being given to the departments.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Good. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Does anybody want to take one more minute?

Ms. Davidson, would you like to ask a question?

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Sure.

I understand that it's an evolving process, and it sounds as though you're saying it is moving along and it's getting to where it hopefully needs to be.

The one question I have is that we refer to this federal plan for gender equality from 1995. There were some previous questions asked about it, and I think you had indicated that it wasn't necessarily followed, because there was a new plan, a five-year plan, put in place in 2000. Did it differ very much from the 1995 plan?

[Hélène Dwyer-Renaud]

Just to give you some context, these plans also come through in terms of the commitments of governments under the Beijing platform for action. Basically, there were commitments made internationally, and then domestically the plans were put together.

Definitely the first plan, the 1995 plan, was huge in its breadth. I seem to remember 265 recommendations. But the surviving piece of it was the GBA policy.

The next round, the next plan, was very much more targeted, and ironically, all the governments that moved through the different years realized that you needed to have the GBA policy. That practice was endorsed in the second plan pretty much everywhere in the world, with the idea that it had to be on targeted initiatives, that to spread yourself too thinly didn't give you the kinds of results you needed.

What actually was missing on the second one was what we are now doing government-wide. It's the whole notion of results-based management. It's looking at how we can collect data and see the results, and see how the results are moving through the system. That was not part of the thinking in many of those years. That wasn't necessarily where any of the governments were, but with the whole notion of accountability now, it would be the piece that we would want to see happening and it's the piece that we're pursuing now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Madame Deschamps pour cinq minutes.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

In the Gender Equality Indicator Project that was submitted to the committee, you have defined an indicator framework with the help of an interdepartmental committee. Did you take into consideration outside groups, such as research groups, in setting priorities for this plan? Have groups already done some research that impacts the project's objectives or content?

[Hélène Dwyer-Renaud]

Research groups have certainly influenced project priorities and will continue to do so. In 2005, we initiated a fairly broad consultative process. We consulted with women's groups across Canada. Information on this subject is available on our website. One of the recommendations made by women's groups called for the development of indicators. These groups trusted Status of Women Canada to undertake this project. And that is what we are doing.

There is nothing mystical about these indicators. They were not conjured up out of thin air. They are truly a reflection of a world-wide trend. Commonwealth nation indicators are similar to ours. They embrace the same themes, domains and issues.

I believe the next step in the indicator project will be to ask civil society for its opinion on the aims and choice of indicators. Here again, this is a question for Ms. Beckton, not for the researcher.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

As I see it, it is extremely important to be able to base ourselves on studies that reflect fairly accurately the economic and social reality of women today. It is unfortunate that these studies are not funded to the same extent as they once were.

In a similar vein, I imagine that it is rather difficult for you to carry out a project of this nature at a time when you are being pressured by task forces working under the aegis of the UN and contending with the will of governments in office. Surely you must be facing some pressure from the government which has its own priorities. We talked about culture, but efforts can be hampered by ideology as well.

The next step is for you to submit your project to the interdepartmental committee no later than the start of the summer. An election is always a possibility when a minority government is in office. Could that have an adverse effect on your efforts or could the prospect of an election stop your project from going forward?

[Hélène Dwyer-Renaud]

Not to my knowledge. We are talking here about a methodology, a precise instrument for assessing the validity of policies when they are formulated.