That's my final answer.
Evidence of meeting #19 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #19 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Professor, School of Public Administration, University of Victoria
No, I think my previous response stands.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Dr. Young, I see in your profile on the UBC law department website that you consulted with the Department of Finance on tax policy. Was that the federal finance department? If so, when did your work take place and what did it consist of? Could you tell us a little bit about that?
Prof. Claire Young
I consulted with the Department of Finance in the mid-eighties, to my recollection—probably 1984-85—or many years ago. I worked with them on drafting the amendments to the attribution rules, which are quite technical, specific rules dealing with the splitting of property income. The work had nothing to do with gender when I consulted with them. I had just started my academic career at the time, having moved into academia from a position as a legislative drafting person; so they were relying on my drafting skills, not my academic skills, I think. That was the only time I worked for the federal Department of Finance. It was over a couple of summers when I spent some time in Ottawa—and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
You have studied the impact on women of funding social programs through the tax system, including the fact that women benefit less than men from this. Could you please elaborate on this conclusion, making specific reference to the Canada child tax benefit.
Prof. Claire Young
I'm going to be as shameless, then, as Dr. Good.
Prof. Claire Young
The paper is called, Women, Tax and Social Programs: The Gendered Impact of Funding Social Programs Through the Tax System. I would have to say that when this was written, it was about a previous incarnation of the child tax benefit. So I haven't done much work on the child tax benefit recently, but certainly the critique of this benefit has essentially been that some women with low incomes are not getting access to it. I think the working income supplement has had some remedial effect in that regard.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Finance Canada conducted a gender-based analysis of the tax policy changes in the 2006-07 budget, so in addition to tax policy changes, can you discuss other areas that Finance Canada should also be examining from a gender lens?
Prof. Claire Young
I'm a tax policy person, so I think I'd be overstepping my area of expertise and my knowledge to.... Obviously, as a woman, I can think of many areas I'd like to see more work done on, but certainly from a tax policy perspective, I tried to hit on what I think are the primary ones. I think these would include tax subsidies for retirement savings, which are just not accomplishing what they should be doing. That's one that immediately leaps to mind. I also think there are some issues with the child care expense deduction, the spousal tax credit, and so on.
Professor, School of Public Administration, University of Victoria
I think it's important to look at all of the instruments of governance that affect people. Clearly, the finance side of both tax expenditures and direct expenditures needs to be part of the analysis—and the gender implications of those things become very important.
In addition to that, of course, governments pass a lot of laws. They undertake a lot of regulations. These are very powerful instruments of governance, and one needs to ensure that the gender-based implications of what's happening there can clearly be undertaken.
The last point I would make is that governments also use “exhortation”, as it's called in the literature, or persuasion or rhetoric, in the best sense of the word. It's direction; it's giving commitment to things. The gender ramifications of those things, I think, need to be examined as well, so that we ensure that in all instruments of government those things can be undertaken.
But that's not enough. One also needs to look at private sector practices and begin to see what's happening there. Let me just give you a wee little example.
Yesterday I went to pick up my shirts at the dry cleaners. So I picked up my shirt and one for my wife. Well, of course, my shirt cost $3.10 per shirt and my wife's $4.95. Why is that the case? It's because the machines used here in Victoria only fit men's shirts; they don't fit women's shirts. Well, I think that's unfair; I think that's wrong. So there are many things in the private sector that should be improved and be looked at as well to ensure there is fairness across the genders. I have a great deal of difficulty explaining to my wife why we have to pay more for her shirts than for my shirts, and quite frankly, I don't think it's fair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you, Ms. Grewal.
Dr. Good, as the chair, I would like to use my privileges and get you to explain the supply side and the demand side. You have stated that the demand side has diminished in capacity. Is that because the public is not engaged in public policy-making, even though we see a lot of advocacy and consultation going on? Could you help me understand that?
Also, we have had witnesses tell us they are going to use gender indicators, like housing and LICO, the low-income cut-off, etc. They say they are going to work with European countries to see what sorts of indicators there are. Are indicators useful? Since gender budgeting or gender analysis is a constant work in progress, when will we know that we have reached...?
Professor, School of Public Administration, University of Victoria
On the last part, it will be a process of becoming. I don't think we're going to reach a definitive point. I think the key is, are we making measured progress? Are we making improvements in these areas, and what's happening with respect to them? Is there less discrimination? Is there a reduction of bad impacts? Are unintended consequences being unearthed? And are we seeing some of these differentials? Statistics Canada can do quite well on income questions and others. Are we beginning to see some progress with respect to that?
I'm a bit more for the broader global indicators than for putting in place a whole set. What I fear is that if one goes down the indicators track, it can become quite a bureaucratic process of a whole set of indicators. In all cases, these indicators need to be very clearly aligned to the individual policy or individual expenditure or individual piece of legislation that one is looking at.
On the first part of the question, with regards to the demand and supply sides, my sense is that there's a lot of supply out there. We have a lot of new public servants, we have a lot of new people who do analysis, we have a lot of capacity and think tanks, and we have a lot of things that can be done. But there's nothing more powerful than the question being asked by the right person at the right time.
When you take forward a policy to cabinet or you go to the Treasury Board or you're presenting something to the Department of Finance, if someone in a senior position says, “Tell me the gender impact of this policy. What are the consequences of that?”, that's on the demand side.
As these questions are increasingly being asked, I think the supply is going to be there. Getting that right becomes important. That requires a government that is interested in public policy, a government that is interested in the substance of public policy and the capacity to ask these fundamental questions and to do it at all levels within government, both at the political and at the bureaucratic level.
I think these become important issues for us to focus on. And I don't think just working on the supply side is going to do it. In other words, if you build it--
Professor, School of Public Administration, University of Victoria
Thank you.
Liberal
Professor, School of Public Administration, University of Victoria
This is not an enterprise for which, if you build it, they will come. This is an enterprise for which, if there's an incentive and the right question is being asked, it will be responded to.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you.
Dr. Young, I think there was a question from Madame Deschamps regarding the economic security of women. When the homemakers you're talking about came before us, they wanted to see if there was any way they could contribute to the CPP. Have you as a tax policy person thought of that and of what value you would allocate to somebody working from home?
Prof. Claire Young
Absolutely. This question has been on the table for a long time. It's not actually technically a tax question, but there's no doubt that if you look at the money spent by the government on retirement savings--we have the old age security and the CPP, with the old age security being the more universal plan, and then we have the more private plans, the RRSP and the occupational pension plans--for women working in the home, there is no question that access to CPP would be a huge step forward.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Regarding the working income tax benefit, we were told that a person earning $22,000 is too poor for the working income tax benefit and too rich for the child tax credit.