Status of Women Committee on April 14th, 2010

[Marie Carter]

The challenges that we have in the engineering world vary to some degree from one particular engineering discipline to the next because they're different work environments from one engineering discipline to the next. As an example, in biomedical and environmental engineering fields there are huge numbers of women. The challenges are fewer in those areas because there is a large diversity of people there.

In the areas, for example, of computer engineering, electrical engineering—my personal background, though not any more, is transportation engineering—it's still largely men in those industries. The industries vary, so you'll have a lot of women in government, because in government there are systems in place and protection in place and equity is far more.... What's the word I'm looking for? You can see it; it's right there. It gets reported on. It doesn't necessarily in private industry, so it's difficult to try to quantify what the challenges may be.

Anecdotally, we've heard about a number of challenges. They largely relate to work-life balance, and we're hearing those same challenges now from the new generation of people working, where the men are just as interested in work-life balance as are the women. The biggest challenge for us, really, is in management styles. We need to get more women into the senior levels. The management styles that women have are quite different from the management styles that men have. Women tend to be collaborative; men tend to be hierarchical. I'm painting with a broad brush.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Excuse me, but we have two more minutes and two more people waiting to answer. I will just give you a warning of the time.

[Mary Ann Mihychuk]

In the exploration and mining industry, I think direct harassment is probably less a reality today. There was a perception when I started as a geologist in 1977 that if a woman went into a remote field camp with a team of men, there could be a riot. There would be unacceptable behaviour. I've been in this business 33 years. You put a woman into a mining camp, it actually calms things down, makes it a more pleasant, reasonable kind of place. It's like the program Survivor. If you put eight strangers into the bush for three months with no way out, it's a challenge to everyone, but it doesn't mean we all turn into maniacs.

There's this perception and it's holding us back in a lot of ways. I think we have to open our minds. Women can do various physically challenging positions. We've proven that we can do it. I think that's the biggest barrier, changing perceptions, as you know, and it's about being more flexible. If an aboriginal woman wants to work in a mining company, then we need to be sensitive to her challenges as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We're out of time, but I will allow Ms. Nelson to answer these questions.

[Palmer Nelson]

I'll be brief.

The greatest obstacle to dental hygienists would be moving from the auxiliary role within dentistry to a professional role. We're seeing that. Also, we need more business knowledge, more management knowledge in our curriculum in the education of dental hygienists to be professionals, not auxiliaries.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

And now we go to the Conservatives, Ms. Brown.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, ladies, for being here today.

I have questions for all of you but I'm not going to get to them all. I'm going to start with Ms. Nelson, particularly because for three years I was on the board. I was a public appointment to the College of Dental Hygienists of Ontario and sat as the vice-president for the dental hygienists college. I knew nothing about the profession before I went there, but it was certainly enlightening. I was part of the advocacy that brought in the legislation in Ontario to allow self-initiation. So I am intimately conversant with the issue.

I was a strong advocate to see business courses in there. I'm a business person, so I know the need for all of that to happen within the curriculum. Can you give us any idea of how many of the dental hygienists who now have the opportunity to self-initiate have gone into business for themselves? Can you give us any idea of what the percentages are?

[Palmer Nelson]

They are based on provincial figures. We still have P.E.I., Newfoundland and Labrador, Northwest Territories, Yukon, and Quebec that are not able to self-initiate. So of the provinces that are, there is now a total of 214 businesses, and they range anywhere from mobile services to working contractually with institutions to storefront retail operations that are solely owned by dental hygienists. So 214: that's a huge increase just within a year period of time. We have a dedicated person at Canadian Dental Hygienists Association to deal with independent practice issues, and we're seeing expanded information coming across to CDHA in that realm because there isn't a lot of information and knowledge out there.

I'm from Newfoundland and Labrador, and I've practised for 20 years with a dentist. I've worked with governments to try to become self-regulating. We are working on an umbrella legislation. But I am moving to Nova Scotia, and I'm very happy about that because I'm able to put forward a business plan that I've developed and have my own business in Nova Scotia because the legislation allows me to do that. But I've looked towards entrepreneurial agencies that help support women outside of the realm of dental hygiene, just women in general in terms of business.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

You said that 5% of dental hygienists are male. Are there any statistics on whether or not the men are going into business on their own?

[Palmer Nelson]

You mean the men dental hygienists?

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Men dental hygienists, yes.

[Palmer Nelson]

I wouldn't have that for you, but I could get that.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

It would be very interesting to know.

[Judy Lux, Communications Specialist, Health Policy, Canadian Dental Hygienists Association]

I could report on that. If I can just give the percentage, about 1% of the dental hygiene population are going into business for themselves. At the present time there is only one man.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

That's very interesting. So any other information or follow-up on that I think would be very interesting for the committee.

Ms. Lafrance, I really appreciated the detail that you provided in your opening comments. In particular is this one paragraph where you talked about “attracting women to the policing career is the same as attracting men”. Can you talk about the things that are attractive to both genders in policing? Do you see any difference between what women are looking for and what men are looking for? I guess what I'm getting to is that this is a choice and people are making choices, but what are the attractions?

[Supt Louise Lafrance]

If you ask any member of the RCMP or any police person out there, we are all attracted to the fact that we will be helping the community. If you ask anybody, they will all answer that. Every recruit will say that as well. We want to help our community and be involved in our community. What is exciting is that it is not a nine to five job. You never know what you're getting into. You start your day and you don't know what's going to happen that day, and everything you do is challenging and exciting, and at the end of the day you feel like you have accomplished something.

Yes, male applicants are more attracted to the toys, to the emergency response team, the tactical team; any cars or guns that we can show, they are going to be more interested in that. Women are interested in the field of investigation or forensics. The beauty of the RCMP is that you can do all of that. You can choose the path you want to follow and take courses according to what you wish to do.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Has it made it more attractive? I had a conversation with the commanding officer at Wainwright last year about the attraction. They are looking at the same core group of people, who are looking at a military or paramilitary career. Have we made it more attractive in recruiting in general, now that the government has allowed for RCMP cadets to be paid while they are at depot?

[Supt Louise Lafrance]

That certainly helped. People who go to depot receive a $500 allowance per week, and that has helped us increase our numbers, because let's say a mother of three wants to go to depot. Having no income would make it very difficult. This allowance allows these people to be able to move forward, certainly.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

A very quick question to Ms. Carter, if I may. You talked about curriculum and the need for introducing girls at a younger age. Would you think that technology courses at the secondary level at school would be helpful to encourage young women to choose a career in engineering?

[Marie Carter]

Absolutely. I think we really need to figure out what it is that's steering girls away from maths and sciences in high school. Is it because it's perceived as boring? Perhaps if they had a technology program, hands on, it would be a lot more exciting.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Physics and drafting were my favourite secondary school subjects.

[Marie Carter]

Me too, but my guidance counsellor thought I should be a psychologist, and those who know me understand that it would have been a bad choice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have ten seconds.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I'll leave that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

For the NDP, Ms. Mathyssen.