Status of Women Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Madam Chair, do I have time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have two and a half minutes.

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much.

During that same appearance on the act, you testified that under the act the equitable compensation assessment will not stand on its own, “outside but attached to the collective agreement”. However, you also testified that employees will not vote on the equitable compensation assessment separately. How do you consider this to be equity?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

The underpinning of the legislation is that all issues with respect to wages and compensation are dealt with at the same time, including the assessment of pay equity. Once this assessment is done jointly, which is how the other provincial models work, there is an additional step, which is to put to employees for ratification the equitable compensation assessment that has been done. In other words, problem identification would be done through the process of setting wages, and confirmation that the problem has been resolved, once identified, would be done by putting it to a ratification vote by employees to confirm that they agree that this is acceptable. It is a process that does not even exist in a complaint-based system.

In a complaint-based system, the bargaining agents bring forward the complaint. If there is a settlement on it or if the court determines something, the bargaining agents will determine whether they will bring the complaint further.

In this process of ratification, employees will be able to express themselves collectively on the equitable compensation assessment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 20 seconds. Are you finished?

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Mendes, very quickly.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, Ms. Laurendeau. I will be quick. In terms of ratification, if you include the equitable compensation process in collective bargaining and if you vote for the two at the same time, employees will not be able to vote on pay equity alone. They will have to vote on both, if I am not mistaken.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Yes, that's right.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

So how can they show their dissatisfaction with pay equity agreements?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Since pay issues are often determining issues in terms of ratifying a collective agreement, employees will also clearly express their opinions on the equitable compensation assessment.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

For the Bloc Québécois, we'll go to Madame Demers.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, Ms. Laurendeau. Good morning, Ms. Bogden. We are pleased to have you with us this morning.

I am having trouble understanding your explanation. You are saying that this is a proactive piece of legislation and that you are dealing adequately with the recommendations of the 2004 task force.

Could you give us some concrete examples of women who have actually benefited from these new rules and of collective agreements that were negotiated and with which women were satisfied?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

No, not at this stage, because the act is not in effect yet on these issues. However, we have succeeded in the past to make or preserve some gains for women in the context of collective bargaining. The fact that this is now a joint obligation means that the parties have to work together and make sure that pay provisions or other provisions do not have an adverse effect on women. Let's take for example some of the parental leave requests that were made in the past and that, in some cases, may have represented a step backwards in terms of gains. The simple fact that there is also a joint obligation with respect to employment conditions other than pay has allowed us to sit down with the unions and tell them that they cannot deal with the parental leave issue in that way because it would be limiting women's rights.

My point is that, in the context of collective bargaining, when there is an obligation to deal with fundamental rights, then there is a genuine dialogue at the bargaining table.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Do you really believe that a woman who is not satisfied and has to fight alone without the support of her union is actually a step forward? Can you tell me that with a straight face? I just don't understand.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Actually, the gain is not so much related to the way the complaint is filed as to the fact that issues of pay equity will be dealt with at the outset. It is a way of ensuring that the employer and union partners attach real importance to issues affecting women as part of the democratic collective bargaining process rather than having a process in a vacuum and then trying to address inequities that came up during the negotiations.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

So you think that it is democratic to send someone to defend themselves without any support?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

The democracy is in the mechanism for representation that the union has.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

You say that the new act “replaces a complaint-based approach with a proactive one. As such, it brings the federal regime in line with a number of provinces that also require a form of proactivity”. Which provinces are you referring to?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Quebec, Manitoba, Ontario...

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Which provinces? Are you telling us that Quebec does the same thing as Canada?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

No, that's not what I said. I said that some provinces had recognized that a proactive system was the best way to guarantee fundamental rights. The plan put forward by the Public Sector Equitable Compensation Act is a proactive plan that requires pay equity issues to be addressed as they occur. The only difference is that it is done as part of the collective bargaining process, which was established by the Supreme Court...

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Ms. Laurendeau, I think you are here this morning to try to deceive us and make us believe that this act is equitable. You have been feeding us lies. I am very sorry, but this proactive legislation is completely different from what we have in Quebec.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Madame Demers, the approved language, please.