Status of Women Committee on Nov. 16th, 2010

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

It's 8:45. I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we're undertaking at this committee a study of the cancellation of the mandatory long-form census and its impact on women's equality in Canada.

We have witnesses with us from Statistics Canada. Rosemary Bender is the assistant chief statistician, social health and labour studies. Jane Badets is director general, census subject matter, social and demographic statistics. Marc Hamel is director general, census management office.

We also have, from Status of Women Canada, Sébastien Goupil, executive director, gender-based analysis and strategic policy branch. Erin Leigh is senior policy analyst, gender-based analysis and strategic policy branch.

Welcome, and thank you very much for coming this morning. The usual procedure is that each group has 10 minutes, so you can decide how you will divide up your 10 minutes for the presentation. Then we will be open for questions and answers.

We will begin with Statistics Canada and Ms. Badets.

[Jane Badets, Director General, Census Subject Matter, Social and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada]

We want to thank the committee for inviting Statistics Canada to appear today.

I will be reading from a prepared text.

In regard to the 2011 census and the national household survey, I would point out that on June 26, 2010, the census questions were published in the Canada Gazette and included the same eight questions as the 2006 short-form census.

Statistics Canada was asked to provide options for a voluntary survey. The government selected the option to conduct the voluntary survey called the national household survey.

On August 21, 2010, the census content was amended in the Canada Gazette, with two questions on language being added.

Regarding the 2011 census, the implementation of the census is progressing as planned, with the printing of questionnaires. All field offices are open and recruitment is also progressing as planned. The census will be in May, with census day on May 10, and early enumeration for northern and remote communities will be conducted in February and March of 2011. The same level of quality in past censuses will be produced, with an expected response rate of 98%. Tentative dissemination plans would see all census results released within 18 months of census day, with the first release of population and dwelling counts in February 2012.

In regard to the 2011 national household survey, which I'm going to refer to as the NHS, this will be the first time that Statistics Canada will conduct this voluntary survey. Statistics Canada will conduct and release the results of this survey applying the same methods and standards used in all of its surveys. The sample size for the NHS will be larger than that of the 2006 census long form: 4.5 million dwellings compared with the previously planned 2.9 million dwellings for a 2011 census long form. The NHS reference date of May 10 is the same as that for the census. The NHS will be conducted in the same timeframe as the census, with questionnaires targeted for delivery generally one month after the census. The NHS will make maximum use of the census infrastructure.

The implementation of the NHS is progressing as planned. The questionnaires are currently being printed, and tentative release plans would see the first release of results in early 2013.

Due to significant changes in methodology between the 2006 census long form and the national household survey, we anticipate that comparisons between the two data sources will be difficult. The extent to which this will be an issue will not be known until we have collected and evaluated the survey results. Statistics Canada is confident, however, that the survey will produce usable and useful information that will meet the needs of many users.

The content of the NHS includes most of the questions that were asked in the 2006 census long form, with some new questions added and modifications made to some other questions.

A question on unpaid work will not be asked in the NHS. Statistics Canada recognizes the importance of collecting data on unpaid work. This information was introduced to the census in 1996 and was introduced to various cycles of the general social survey, in particular to the time use cycles beginning in 1992.

The possibility of removing the unpaid work questions from the long-form census was raised in the 2011 content report released in July 2008. A series of highly focused consultations were undertaken in the summer and fall of 2008. These consultations specifically asked about retaining the unpaid work questions to better understand if there were specifically a policy, program, or legislative need for this information from the census, or if other data sources would be a better source of information on this important topic.

Based on feedback from these consultations, it appeared that little policy, analytic, or academic work had been produced from the unpaid work questions in the census. Further, there appeared to be little current use of the small area of data that could be produced from these questions in the census. Statistics Canada was advised that greater use was being made of the detailed set of questions available in the general social survey than of the census unpaid work questions.

Because of the vast amount of information collected through its 24-hour diary, the general social survey on time use, conducted in 2010, 2005, 1998, and 1992, is the most comprehensive and appropriate survey from which to obtain information about unpaid household activities. For example, the general social survey collects much more detailed information than would be found in the census. It contains additional information, such as about activities both inside and outside the home, simultaneous activities, and elder care. It features a time diary and episode files. The episodes of unpaid work, the time of day these activities are done, how many episodes there are in an average day, and the time spent on these activities can be examined.

In weighing the support to legislation, program and policy needs, data quality, respondent burden, and alternative data sources, the decision was made to not include the unpaid work questions in the 2009 census test questionnaire, the last large-scale test of the content for the 2011 census.

Statistics Canada recognizes the importance of data on unpaid work, which requires a detailed set of questions to capture the range of activities, both inside and outside the home, that could be considered to be unpaid household activities. Thus, this information would continue to be collected, on a five-year cycle, from the general social survey, which has proven to be an effective way to collect information required by data users, with results for the same reference period to be made available.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Are you finished? That was very good. Thank you very much.

Now we move to Status of Women Canada. Who will be the speaker? Mr. Goupil, can you begin, please?

[Sébastien Goupil, Executive Director, Gender-Based Analysis and Strategic Policy Branch, Status of Women Canada]

Thank you for the invitation to come and appear with the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to share with you the work of the Agency in promoting equality for women, and women's full participation in the economic, social and democratic life of Canada.

In order to achieve this, Status of Women Canada is committed to drawing on data, information and analysis that can allow us to understand how far women have come, and what work still remains to be done to ensure women's equality and full participation.

Having high-quality, rigorous data on a range of issues related to diverse women's circumstances and experiences in Canadian society is essential to measuring progress and identifying areas of further change.

To this end, Status of Women Canada is providing financial support, in collaboration with other federal organizations, to Statistics Canada to publish the sixth edition of Women in Canada. This publication was launched in 1985 and has provided a comprehensive statistical portrait of women in the country every five years since. Electronic release of the publication will begin this December on a chapter-by-chapter basis for the next year. As with previous editions, Status of Women Canada is relying on the expertise in data collection and analysis at Statistics Canada to publish this publication.

The 12 chapters of Women in Canada provide invaluable information on a range of topics including women's health, education, economic well-being, paid work, family status and unpaid work, demographics, and women and the criminal justice system.

A central feature of the publication is to have chapters that look specifically at the situation of women from different groups including Aboriginal women, immigrant women, seniors, visible minority women, and women with a participation or activity limitation.

Women are not a homogenous group, and there are differences among women, and not just between women and men. This understanding is a core element of how we do our work, as Status of Women Canada wants to ensure that all women are making progress, and not just some.

Understanding that the intersection of women's gender with other aspects of their identity influences their scope for contributing to and benefiting from Canada's economic, social, and democratic landscape is critical to ensuring that women in all their diversity are making progress in society.

As well, this past June, the federal, provincial, and territorial ministers responsible for the status of women decided to update the 2006 Measuring Violence Against Women: Statistical Trends report, which is also produced by Statistics Canada. This report provides indicators of violence against women, including the prevalence and severity of violence against women, the impact of violence against women, the risk factors associated with violence against women, institutional and community-based responses, and victims' use of services.

Having a strong set of data that is gender disaggregated is also fundamental to fulfilling the government-wide commitment to performing and entrenching the practice of gender-based analysis, otherwise known as GBA. GBA is the process of examining a policy, program, or initiative for its impact on women and men in all their diversity. It provides a snapshot in time that captures the realities of women and men affected by a particular issue. Through systematic use of GBA, policy analysts, researchers, program officers, service providers, evaluators, and decision-makers alike are able to improve their work by being more responsive to the specific needs and circumstances of women and to attain better results for Canadians.

Status of Women Canada provides the necessary leadership and support for the federal family to implement this analysis, and promotes the collection and analysis of gender-disaggregated data. This includes the collection of baseline data when there are information gaps. Gender-disaggregated baseline data has a critical role in challenging policy and program areas that are perceived as gender-neutral, and enabling gender-based analysis of areas where the gender considerations may seem less obvious.

Status of Women Canada is committed to making available and drawing upon relevant and rigorous data and analysis to inform our work. As data users, we regularly turn to our colleagues at Statistics Canada for guidance on the subject of which data sources best illuminate the circumstances of women in a variety of spheres.

As data users, not producers, and at this early stage in the decision, we are not in a position to comment on the impact of eliminating the long-form census, and would defer to our colleagues at Statistics Canada, and other data experts, on this matter.

We will continue to seek out advice on which data sources provide the most telling and rigorous information on the status of women. The information we use comes from a broad range of sources including, but not limited to the census, such as the labour force survey, the Canadian community health survey, the survey of labour and income dynamics, uniform crime reporting survey, the transition home survey, the victim services survey, the homicide survey, and more.

Status of Women Canada relies on data and analysis to understand how women are making progress, and to identify areas where further work is required.

Thank you again for inviting Status of Women Canada to appear before the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much. Everyone is being very efficient this morning.

We will now begin our question and answer section. This is a seven-minute round. It means that the person asking the question and the person answering are included in that seven minutes. I will ask everyone to please be as succinct as they possibly can so we can get enough questions in.

Ms. Neville, for the Liberals.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much.

And thank you for being here this morning.

I have a number of questions I'd like to ask. As the chair has said, there are only seven minutes, so if your answers could be brief, I would appreciate it.

To Statistics Canada, you made the comment in your remarks that the usability of data will be questionable--my word--given the lack of a mandatory requirement to fill in the form. I'd like some expansion on that.

I'd also like to know a little bit about the consultation process. Who was consulted? I'm going to ask you, through the chair, if it would be possible to table the responses you have received on the consultation process, with some indication of where they came from. That would be very helpful and very useful to us.

I want to focus on question 33, which, as you're undoubtedly aware, is of significant concern to this committee and to many women we've talked to throughout the country.

Why was this removed? On what basis was it removed? Who was consulted on the removal of question 33? Why was only that question removed rather than refined? You've left questions on education and transportation that were expanded for clarification, but for some reason the decision to remove question 33 was made.

Why were questions 34 and 44 not kept, which also deal with unpaid work, particularly in light of a family business or a farm? What is the biggest difference between these two types of unpaid work that would lead to them being treated differently in 2011?

I'll stop there, but I've got more questions, if we have time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Badets.

[Jane Badets]

I'll just comment on the consultations to begin with. We do extensive consultations leading up to each census. We start about three or four years prior to the census and do consultations. We put out a consultation guide. It's on our website. It's quite a public process. We consult with key data users. That's for all of the content.

The space on the census questionnaire is limited. We have to weigh a number of factors: the need for the information, whether there's policy or legislative need; the respondent burden; data quality; costs and operational considerations; and alternative data sources.

So we went through that process, and we did have feedback on unpaid work. In particular, in the next step we went forward and did a series of very highly focused consultations specifically about unpaid work. You asked about whom we consulted on that. Certainly, we talked to the governments of our provinces and territories, as Statistics Canada does have territorial and provincial focal points. As well, we had a meeting with federal department managers from a number of departments with interests in the census information. We also did a follow-up and a specific call with provincial and territorial status of women offices, and that was organized by Status of Women Canada. Then also, as part of all of our consultations on the census, we talked to our advisory committees. We have a National Statistics Council, and particularly on this one there was an advisory committee on social conditions, which has advised us on gender work over time.

Then we also looked at the actual use of the unpaid work questions in the census. The need for information from small areas is really important in the census. What we heard back is that there was very, very little use of the census unpaid work questions but that there was a great deal of use of the general social survey questions, which are very extensive. The feedback we got and the advice we were given was that it was those questions from the general social survey that were providing the most comprehensive picture of unpaid household activities, for a number of reasons. It was also available in the same timeframe, and it was these questions from the general social survey that were being used.

So it was all of these considerations on the table that we looked at.

In terms of the other questions, we heard back that those questions were being used, the small area data, for example. There was, of course, quite a bit of use of the subsequent questions on education and labour, and there was a need for that information on the small area scale.

So those were the types of processes we went through. That was the information we got back.

I think that addresses those questions.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm having a bit of trouble with that. In the response to question 33, we have heard from large numbers of individuals who use the data that they are going to be significantly hindered in their work by the removal of that question.

Did you get any of that feedback on that, and I'll go back to my original question and ask, can you table the results of your consultations? That's important.

[Jane Badets]

We can table it in terms of the organizations we consulted and some of the feedback we received, but we can't attribute the specific responses.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That's fine.

But to go back to my question on question 33, I've heard, and I'm assuming other colleagues have heard, a significant response to the removal of question 33. It seems to me there is an inconsistency between what we're hearing and the consultations.

[Jane Badets]

Well, we don't deny that this is an important topic. We're fully aware of that, and we don't deny that information on unpaid work is not needed; it is needed. But what we heard was that it was the data in the general social survey that users were using and that it was a much more comprehensive and richer set of information. It was more encompassing of all the—

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Even though that question was asked over a period of time and indicates a trend--

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, but we have to move on.

Monsieur Desnoyers.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To Statistics Canada: as you are aware, last March, here in the House of Commons, we adopted a motion that states the following:That this House highlight the importance of the so-called “invisible” unpaid work done by parents and caregivers on behalf of their children and aging family members by creating the “Invisible Work Day”…

On the one hand, we are adopting a motion, but on the other, we are abolishing the mandatory census and making it voluntary. A number of stakeholders, that you surely all know, mainly Aboriginal groups, universities and municipalities, recognize the importance of the data that was collected through that document. We risk losing data worth billions of dollars. Surely you know that, in both the provincial and federal economy, all the invisible unpaid work is worth billions of dollars. To my understanding, we are going to tell Canadians that we are now forgetting about this completely. This is what everyone is currently saying, and you're saying it too.

You seem to be saying that this data is now distributed through various surveys. But we are wondering about the relevance of what you said regarding the reliability of the data. How will we be able to establish a comparison with the information collected in the past? The information we get will be completely different because these elements will no longer be included in the questionnaire.

The next question is for Status of Women Canada. You do not question this, but you say that it is impossible for you to say at this point what the impact of losing this information would be on all the legislation that could possibly come into force and where this issue will have a major impact. That much is clear.

[Rosemary Bender, Assistant Chief Statistician, Social, Health and Labour Statistics, Statistics Canada]

I will answer your first question.

We recognize the importance of unpaid work, for sure. What's more, we have carried out a fairly thorough consultation. The message that we were given was still pretty clear. First, we were told that the data and the subject were very important. There is not the slightest doubt in that respect. However, users from several fields told us quite clearly that the data from the General Social Survey was most certainly the source of information that allowed them to do the studies and the work they needed to do.

As for the chronological series, we measured unpaid work a number of times as part of the General Social Survey. We still have a chronological series over a number of years that allows us—and users—to conduct the necessary studies.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

It is quite clear that a number of stakeholders are wondering about the loss of the information in the long-form census. You seem to be saying that there will be no problems and that we will have the data we need. But your colleagues at Status of Women Canada are not so sure. As I mentioned earlier, a number of stakeholders say the opposite of what you are saying. How do you respond to that?

[Rosemary Bender]

Reviewing the census content is always a fairly difficult task. Actually, we have very difficult choices to make. Whether it is this issue or any other, there are a large number of requests and many uses for the data, especially when…

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

But how will you be able to compare data that is going to be different? There was a mandatory questionnaire and now there is a voluntary one. On one hand, we have data of one type, and on the other, we have data that is completely different. Even with the checks that you did in three municipalities, we are given to understand that only the richest will fill out the questionnaire and that the less well-off will not. How will you obtain data that is as specific as you obtained in the past on the women and seniors in those groups? The data will not be as reliable.

[Rosemary Bender]

As for unpaid work, the general social survey is still a very reliable source with chronological data that will allow us to keep up with the subject. As for all the other subjects that will now come from the national household survey, which we use a different methodology for because it is now voluntary, we still don't know what the repercussions will be on the quality. We already know from a few surveys we have done that some sub-populations are likely to have fewer respondents.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You don't know what the repercussions will be on the quality of the data or on the results you will have. So you are sort of in the same position as Status of Women Canada. You aren't sure about what the future holds.

But you haven't answered my question. What will you do to compare past information with new information that is not as specific as it was before?

[Rosemary Bender]

We are putting more procedures in place at a number of levels to properly control the consequences of an under-response from some groups. So far, we have high hopes that, for a number of uses, the data will be comparable and that we will still be able to conduct studies that will be very useful.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You just said that you have put or will put procedures in place. I'd like to know what these procedures are. Also, will there be—and this is for Status of Women Canada…

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I have only 30 seconds left.

Basically, at Status of Women Canada, you have done some questioning of the fact that you won't have specific data anymore, and you won't have it because you won't be able to make a comparison. So how will you put in place programs that will meet the needs of women, seniors and people whose work is unpaid, a group that is largely female?