Evidence of meeting #37 for Status of Women in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kathleen A. Lahey  Professor, Faculty of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual
Martha MacDonald  Professor and Chair, Economics Department, Saint Mary's University, As an Individual
Sheila Regehr  As an Individual
Beverley Smith  Editor, Recent Research on Caregiving, As an Individual
Mary Mowbray  Co-Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Women's Foundation

9:30 a.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual

Prof. Kathleen A. Lahey

Could I just add that there's a lot of detail that goes with this, but this is the only question that has ever been removed from the census since Confederation after it has only been used for a couple of cycles. No other question has ever been so attacked in each consultation period and so vulnerable to being removed. And the way that Statistics Canada handled it I think betrays a certain lack of gender balance.

9:30 a.m.

Editor, Recent Research on Caregiving, As an Individual

Beverley Smith

Could I just say that in my research, Statistics Canada has, over time, changed head of household, changed the marital status categories to five, and removed some things. I still have hope. We keep knocking on that door.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Anyone else wants to add something?

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

One minute.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

I will make one last comment. You talked about the economic crisis. It is quite obvious that women, at the present time, are the most vulnerable. In all businesses, they were the first to be let go because it so happens that the vast majority of them were the youngest. So they find themselves in a situation where they have been seriously put at risk and, unfortunately, we will no longer have these statistics.

So how will we be able to make progress to improve the situation of women? I believe, Ms. Smith, that you have somewhat answered that question earlier.

I find unfortunate that after having waged such important fights for a number of years on issues relating to women, we are not able anymore to continue to make progress on women issues in Canada. It is unfortunate. The government should reconsider its position, as far as I am concerned, on this whole set of issues.

I don't know what your views are about this. In any case, we obviously have very little time left.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Now we move on to the next group. That would be Ms. Cadman for the Conservatives.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Dona Cadman Conservative Surrey North, BC

Ms. Lahey, do I call you Doctor or Professor?

9:30 a.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual

Prof. Kathleen A. Lahey

Professor, not Doctor.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Dona Cadman Conservative Surrey North, BC

Okay. Do you teach now, or are you a lawyer?

9:30 a.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Dona Cadman Conservative Surrey North, BC

How do you, as a lawyer, use this data, or would you use this data?

9:30 a.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual

Prof. Kathleen A. Lahey

I tried to list all of the ways and I really ran out of space.

The most important application that lawyers and law students need to know about is how to adequately prepare, identify, and deal with expert testimony in a whole range of cases. Socio-economic data is one of the key areas, so in my charter litigation involving groups such as Métis women, same-sex couples, and so on, I have had to continually confront the data limitations that the Canadian statistics scene offers.

Also in my own personal research, which is fairly wide ranging and has been funded by everyone from SSHRC to Status of Women Canada and private foundations, I have carried out in-depth research that is usually demographically diversity oriented and requires me to make very heavy use of all of Statistics Canada's products. As well, I've done sort of international, transnational comparative statistical work, so I'm familiar with statistical practices from a large number of developed and underdeveloped countries also.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Dona Cadman Conservative Surrey North, BC

Okay.

Madam Chair, I'll be sharing my time with Ms. Brown and she'll take over now.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

All right. Ms. Brown, you have five minutes.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses. I appreciate hearing from you.

Ms. Smith, I do have a confession to make, I think. In all the years I have been filling out census forms.... I've always worked. As an adult, I've always worked. I took on my first full-time job when I was 18, but when my children were little I was home for a very brief time and then went back to paid employment. But I never, ever considered reading to my children as unpaid work, so I guess I've skewed all of the data that the rest of you have been using. To me, reading to my children was an absolute privilege, and it was time that I looked on, as a mother, as quality time with them. So I'm afraid that I may have skewed the data that you've been using all these years, and you may need to go back and reflect on how others have seen that, because I think it's a very subjective kind of assessment.

I would never have considered shopping for my family as unpaid work. Again, I say that skews data, because again, it's very, very subjective in how people approach these questions. I don't know how you get around that, unless you start to take every question and break it down into multiple components. In the same way, my husband would never consider cutting the grass part of unpaid work. It's simply a household thing that we do because we own the home and we want to maintain our home to its very best advantage. It would never have occurred to him to include that in unpaid work. So again, I say the data you've been using all these years has been skewed, because my responses have not been appropriately delineated in the way you would have said.

That's only a comment to you, not really a question. But I do have a question for Ms. Mowbray, if you don't mind.

9:35 a.m.

Editor, Recent Research on Caregiving, As an Individual

Beverley Smith

Can I comment on your comment?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Yes, you may.

9:35 a.m.

Editor, Recent Research on Caregiving, As an Individual

Beverley Smith

Thank you for bringing that up. That is a key issue, and you're not the first or the only one to do so. A lot of people say, “It is a privilege. I love my kids. I want to feed them. I want to take care of them. I want to rock the baby to sleep. Why would you call that work? How insulting that is.” I see what you're saying. The problem is, what's the alternative? Is it play? Is it leisure? Is it a hobby? To me, it's a responsibility. You legally are supposed to feed your child. If you didn't feed your child, you would be prosecuted. So what category does it fall in? The category I think it falls in is unpaid work, because it's selfless effort that takes energy and time, and often money, and it's benefiting society, it's benefiting the GDP. For example, I had four children. My four children are all adults now--two lawyers, a doctor and a magazine editor. They are big taxpayers, I hope. I gave that to Canada. That's my unpaid work. That's my contribution to the economy.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

But in the same way, it's very subjective.

I'm currently the accompanist for the York region police chorus, and I donate hours and hours of time in performing concerts. The time I spend in preparation for those concerts is my personal time at the piano. I am preparing for something that is for the public good, but I don't consider that work.

So I think we're looking at some very subjective delineation.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I have to suggest that this is not a debate. You were going to ask a question, Ms. Brown, of Ms. Mowbray. You only have a minute left.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Thank you.

Ms. Mowbray, I just want to ask you a question, if I may. And thank you for the work you're doing.

I wonder if you could tell us whether you have been a participant. We understand from Statistics Canada that there have been consultations ongoing since 2008. As a net user, have you been a participant in those consultations?

9:35 a.m.

Co-Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Women's Foundation

Mary Mowbray

Not that I'm aware of.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

It was available, but users are not undertaking to be participants, because they expect to get this information in the long run.

Could I ask what it would cost you if you had to access this information? What would it cost your organization if you had to pay for it?

9:40 a.m.

Co-Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Women's Foundation

Mary Mowbray

I don't know the answer to that question right now. I think that sort of relates to whether it is our data collection and why the government should pay for our data collection. My response to that is that it's not our data collection in terms of the Canadian Women's Foundation; it's our data collection in terms of the country of Canada, and the government represents the people. It is not for us; it's for us to do work, the same work, frankly, that I think the government should be doing. Part of what a government does is look after the most economically vulnerable people in society and move them to becoming economically independent and contributing to the economy.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

How long have you been using this...?