Status of Women Committee on Jan. 18th, 2011

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

The issue I'm looking at is not necessarily the presence of the system but how the system responds to the individual.

[Dr. Michelle Corfield]

Well, I was going to say that the system responds in a very dysfunctional way, because the people are removed from the system yet are called out to the system. Right?

So that's a huge barrier when you're removing people.

[Shelagh Day]

It seems to me that we have so many examples—and Darcie and other people at the table have mentioned some of them—of how the system itself is punishing the women. They're punishing the women for being the victims of violence. I'll add to what Darcie says.

If you're here in this province and you have a partner who's violent to you, whether you're married to him or he's a john, or whatever he happens to be, if it's in a domestic situation and you leave, or you are trying to live on welfare because you have no other economic support...we know that welfare right across this country is completely inadequate for women to safely look after children and have adequate housing.

Then, as Darcie says, if the children have witnessed male violence, or if welfare authorities decide that the housing is inadequate or the food is inadequate, they will take the children away on the basis of their being neglected. We have an example in the province of British Columbia, where the representative for children and youth reported a young native couple who had a three-month-old baby. They are completely capable of looking after this child. They want to look after the child. But the authorities decided that their housing was inadequate. Instead of someone stepping in to help them with the housing, which they had the authority to do and did not do, they took the child away. The child was put in foster care. The child was injured and permanently damaged and then handed back to the parents a year later, blind in one eye, with cerebral palsy, and in need of disability support for life.

Now that is a system that's not functioning. We have more children now in foster care who are aboriginal, as I understand it, than we had in residential schools. So we're repeating the problems that we already have identified, because we don't believe the women, because we don't support the women, because in whatever systems we've set up here we are not prepared to take care of them and support them adequately, especially when they're victims of violence.

So it's not just a matter of not responding; it's a matter of the systems themselves punishing them.

I would say the same thing about the police. We have the same problem with the police, in that when women call for help—and it's male violence we're talking about—the police will often not come and deal adequately with the situation. That's what women are facing all the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Shelagh.

You have no more time, Anita, but as chair, I would ask for a responder to respond regarding the police response.

You've heard that the response is not good. What is the reason for this?

[Supt Russ Nash, Officer in Charge, E Division Major Crime Section, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Madam Chair, we are but a small solution to an incredibly immense problem. I believe that our policy within this province, especially with regard to violence in relationships, is sound. Our policy allows us to actually take proactive action against offenders. It leaves our members no latitude with respect to the actions they will take if they determine that an assault has taken place in the home. And then, of course, that does put the victim in a precarious position, because then they are often forced to provide testimony against the perpetrator.

We have a victim services program within this division that is both police- and community-based. It is there not only to assist the police in their work but also to assist the victims and witnesses in these cases. There is no doubt that because of the dynamics of these types of relationships.... And I would agree that it affects all classes within our society. It certainly seems to be predominant in the lower working class, in the marginalized class, which is extremely unfortunate. It's difficult for us, as police, to deal with that, because on the one hand--you're right--the victim is living with someone in a home. I guess in many respects that's a plus. On the other hand, reporting the perpetrator means that someone has to be removed from that residence, and the support services need to be in place to assist victims in that regard.

As I said, our policy with respect to violence in relationships is fulsome. It's very comprehensive, and our members—and I speak only for the RCMP—are trained that they must abide by that policy so that we can minimize the incidence of violence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I won't continue this, but I would like to know why, if somebody has to be removed from a violent situation, it has to be the woman. I just wanted to know that. So think about it. It'll come back later on as a question.

We'll now hear from Madam Demers.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for being here this afternoon. We appreciate it very much. I know that it's getting late and that you have been here for much of the afternoon.

Sergeant Hulan, I would like to know something. In the document you presented to us, you talk about a project that began in the fall of 2005. You document 18 cases still under investigation. I assume that the perpetrators remain at large, since you do not mention it in your report. I assume that you have not found those responsible for the murders of 17 people and that you have not found the seven missing persons either.

During the same period of time, from 2005 to 2010, the Sisters in Spirit initiative conducted substantive research of exceptional worth with very few resources. Its representatives presented to us a report at the end of last year on all those who disappeared or were murdered.

How do you explain that you do not have more results to show for your investigation, considering all the resources available to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police? Why have you not made more progress? In your organization, 75 people have been working on this case since 2005. How do you explain that? Please, give me an answer. I'm confused, I don't understand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Nash or Mr. Hulan.

[S/Sgt Bruce Hulan]

When our project was initially created, the mandate was to review all of the investigational files: to identify the files, review the files, and develop investigational strategies. When we began the process of identifying which files we felt we had to bring within the project, we had to create a criterion and, I would suggest, a strict guideline or strict rules as to what files we could look at.

As I explained, we were restricted to looking at files that involved females, young women, engaged in high-risk activity or activity that placed them at risk, but we have also restricted our investigation to either homicides or missing persons files that occurred within one mile of the major highways I spoke about. Our logic for restricting the numbers to that, or for criteria that low, was that to achieve success in our investigational file, we have to be able to have a manageable number of files to look at.

We could conduct a search of the entire province and end up with possibly significantly more investigations, but for the particular mandate of our project, to be able to expect or hope to achieve success in those investigations, it would be such a momentous task that--

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Since you have not gotten any tangible results, do you think that you were maybe looking in the wrong place, that you should have taken a different approach?

There is something else. In Maniwaki, two aboriginal girls disappeared two years ago. When they went missing, the local police service took on one case, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police took on the other. Consequently, there has been no collaboration between the two police forces. That means that the two police services have not been sharing data.

Today, we still don't know the whereabouts of those two girls. At the time of their disappearance, the two missing girls were 15 and 16 years of age. Today, they would be 17 and 18. Is it normal that, when girls from the same aboriginal community disappear, there is no collaboration between those investigating the cases because they belong to two different police forces?

[S/Sgt Bruce Hulan]

First of all, I think I heard two questions there. The first one was that we haven't achieved any significant results.... I would disagree with that. We haven't been successful in charging anybody in any of the offences, but we have advanced the investigations. We have collected significant numbers in DNA. Many of our cases have suspect DNA, and we have collected over 600 samples of DNA from individuals in the last year and a half. For people who have been identified in the investigations as long-time suspects, that have carried on for years...we have proven that they were not responsible for those offences, so I think it's important to say that we have made progress.

The issue of communication between police forces is a very good point. It's something that in the last 20 years I think we have made great strides in. I can't speak to the specific investigation that you refer to in Quebec, because I'm not familiar with it, but in British Columbia I can say that within our investigation specifically we exchange information with our detachments. We share information with detachments, but also with the municipal police departments within the province, as well as the other investigations in other provinces that are parallel or similar to our investigation.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

I have one last question. Mr. Hulan, do you think there should be a public inquiry into the disappearance or murder of some 600 young women who have gone missing?

[S/Sgt Bruce Hulan]

I'm sorry. I missed the last part of your question.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Do you agree with the public inquiry that has been called for regarding the murders or disappearances of those 600 young aboriginal women?

[S/Sgt Bruce Hulan]

How much time did you say I have, Madam Chair?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

It's a yes or no question.

[Supt Russ Nash]

The only way we could answer that would be to say that it would not be for us to demand an inquiry or to ask for an inquiry, but if the government decided that was a good idea, we certainly would cooperate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Ms. Grewal for the Conservatives.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Obviously, when we are talking about violence against aboriginal women, there is a perpetrator, right? And the perpetrator is a man, I assume. Are there any programs for men so that they can have some help to get them out of this cycle and all this sort of stuff? Are there any programs out there to help them out?

[Supt Russ Nash]

Who is that directed to?

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Anyone can answer that.

[Bernie Williams]

They've got john schools--

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

To help the men out?

[Supt Russ Nash]

I'll answer that.

Yes, there is counselling that could be made available or that is made available. Certainly, there are conditions that can be placed on the perpetrators by the courts. But the notion of counselling or something like that certainly wouldn't be within the purview of the police.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Would anyone else like to answer?