Evidence of meeting #49 for Status of Women in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tracy Porteous  Executive Director, Ending Violence Association of British Columbia
Marilyn George  Representative, Outreach Services Coordinator, Smithers, British Columbia, Ending Violence Association of British Columbia
Asia Czapska  Advocacy Director, Justice for Girls
Lisa Yellow-Quill  Co-manager, Aboriginal Women's Program, Battered Women's Support Services
Hilla Kerner  Collective Member, Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter
Darla Laughlin  Aboriginal Outreach Coordinator and Youth Counsellor, Women Against Violence Against Women
Nancy Cameron  Program Manager, Crabtree Corner Community Program, YWCA of Vancouver
Leslie Wilkin  Violence Prevention Worker, Crabtree Corner Community Program, YWCA of Vancouver
Russell Wallace  Vice-President, Board of Directors, Warriors Against Violence Society
Jane Miller-Ashton  Professor, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
Beverley Jacobs  Former President of the Native Women's Association of Canada, As an Individual
Janine Benedet  As an Individual
Darlene Rigo  Collective Member, Aboriginal Women's Action Network
Michelle Corfield  As an Individual
Shelagh Day  Representative, B.C. CEDAW Group
Darcie Bennett  Campaigns Director, Pivot Legal Society
Bruce Hulan  Team Commander, Project EPANA, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Bernie Williams  Co-founder, Walk4Justice
Russ Nash  Officer in Charge, E Division Major Crime Section, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Sharon McIvor  As an Individual
Laura Holland  Collective Member, Aboriginal Women's Action Network

January 18th, 2011 / 6:50 p.m.

Representative, B.C. CEDAW Group

Shelagh Day

I do too.

The other thing is that we've put forward models that would actually provide a way for civil society to come forward with particular issues to say, look, we really know about this particular recommendation that was made and what's needed in order to implement it fully, in a way that's effective. There could be some real interaction, real dialogue, between civil society and government about these very basic issues.

So I agree with that completely. The participation of aboriginal women in the design of the implementation of recommendations that have to do with violence against women is just essential.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Shelagh.

That's it, Libby.

We don't have room for another round. We only have about six more minutes. I would have liked to give everybody 30 seconds to say what it is you'd like to see, but Libby has brought up something really important that I think I would like us to explore a little bit.

Accountability is something that I think is at the heart of it all. What do we mean by accountability? Is it that the Auditor General says you have $50 million for a thing and you spend the $50 million in the right place? I think that's part of accountability, but it's not accountability. Accountability, as Libby said earlier on, is when you say you're going to achieve this goal. You look at what you are doing when you set up the structures and the strategies, and you say, three years later, “Are we anywhere close? Did we get there? Are we going in the wrong direction entirely? Are we going backwards?” That's a piece of accountability: to achieve objectives and goals that were set out.

However, I also think that the thing I would like to explore just a little bit is the RCMP.

I'm not picking on you guys, but you're the only police people or police institution around the table here, so....

Obviously there is an accountability to what your department suggests you should do, but when you come to a meeting like this and you hear that there are real, concrete problems and challenges on the ground to achieving your goals of (a) protecting society, including aboriginal women in that society, and (b) protecting women from violent situations, and you believe that the strategies that you've been given from on high aren't working and that there is a reality where the rubber hits the road, don't you believe that you have to do something about it from your ground up? Don't you believe you need to now go back and say, “Guys, it sounds good on paper, but it isn't working; what we're doing is revictimizing women and we're not actually achieving the goal of protecting and creating safe places”?

Do you guys do that? I know it's difficult, but do you do it?

So that's the question I want to throw at you, Libby's question about accountability, which Shelagh is touching on. At the end of the day, when the United Nations as a multilateral body says to a country, “Da-dah, da-dah”, they're speaking to a nation-state. Canada, whether we like it or not, is the nation-state that has to be accountable to that international body for getting it done.

We know that in Canada, as a federation, we have constitutional jurisdictional things. The federal government cannot go to a province and say, “I demand that you do that”. But it does mean...and I believe, Shelagh, from where I sit, and having been in cabinet a length of time, that the federal government has the responsibility to find a way, whatever that way is, to achieve what it is as a nation-state they have to answer to. And it's up to them to find the structure and take a leadership role in doing it.

[Applause]

You know, this is what I would like to hear us talk about as a committee, that we cut through this nonsense, because of all the people who have fallen through the cracks, aboriginal people are the ones who continue to have people play football with this. I really feel, and I hope...and this is something that we're hearing from you. You've articulated it extremely well.

I just wanted to pick up Libby's question on accountability, therefore, in terms of the reality of actually achieving goals.

So what is it you--either Russ or Bruce--can tell me about what you heard today and how you're going to go back and make a difference? I know you're only two....

I'm not going to put you on the spot--

6:50 p.m.

Officer in Charge, E Division Major Crime Section, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

6:50 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

No, no, but there have to be mechanisms for you to be able to say, “You know what? It ain't working, guys, on the ground.”

6:55 p.m.

Officer in Charge, E Division Major Crime Section, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Supt Russ Nash

Madam Chair, thank you for that.

Certainly I've listened a lot today, and certainly I've learned a lot today. With respect to the RCMP and our ability to change and modify our behaviour and react within those areas or that circle of influence we have control over, I think what we've heard today is that this isn't just a policing issue. As a matter of fact, when Shelagh spoke, she mentioned two major problems. One was certainly addressed to the police. But the other one was socio-economic--it's the conditions these poor victims are living in. So there's a greater thing that certainly we have no influence over.

Within the RCMP, within what we can do, our policy is ever evolving and ever changing. When we see that something isn't working, that is communicated.

I am the officer in charge of the E Division major crime section. I have 400 personnel who report directly to me. So I have control over that sphere that spans this province. My people, on a fairly routine basis, approach me and speak to maybe certain areas of protocol or to policies we've enacted that we maybe need to amend, and we do that. Within division policy and within our national policies, we continue to evolve. So when we see that there are areas where we can improve, we do. Certainly in the areas of violence in relationships, I believe that we have a very good policy.

From what you mentioned earlier, I think you were under the impression that in every situation involving violence in a relationship, the victim is removed from the house. That is not our policy. Certainly, when we have evidence to support that an assault has taken place, the perpetrator is removed from the house, leaving the victim safe there.

In those instances when we're called and there's no overt offence that has been committed but we believe that to leave the two people in the residence together could possibly create further problems or to someone being victimized, the option is there for someone to leave the house voluntarily. Then there are shelters available.

On forcible removal in the situation when there's no offence...we don't forcibly take anyone out. I think what you're hearing about as well is a social services system that may return to the residence when the victim is back with the offender, placing the children in jeopardy. It's at that point, then, unfortunately, that people are forcibly removed.

With respect to accountability, that's one of our core values. Certainly, I hold my people accountable, and we do strive.... The 400 people who report to me are people who come to work on a daily basis wanting to do the best they can for the citizens of this province and this country. On a daily basis they make me proud. Do we make mistakes? Absolutely. Do we learn from those mistakes? I hope we do. It's through those mistakes that we actually alter our policies and procedures and hopefully perform and provide a level of support and service to the people of this country to the best of our ability.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you for that answer. You are in a difficult position to give the answer I think we want to talk about, which is about outcomes-based accountability or results-based accountability. I think that's what everyone is talking about. It's difficult being in a bureaucracy and having to deal with that. I know that. I'm not going to put you on the spot any further. But it would be nice for the RCMP division in British Columbia and Yukon to be the best practice for Canada down the road. Right? You've heard things here, so you can start some best practices.

6:55 p.m.

Officer in Charge, E Division Major Crime Section, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Supt Russ Nash

I'll certainly try.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Did somebody else put a hand up?

What I'd like to do now is ask for 30 seconds, starting with Bernie and moving on to Darcie, Shelagh, Bruce, Michelle, and Darlene.

You can make this happen. What would you do to make it happen? You have 30 seconds.

6:55 p.m.

Co-founder, Walk4Justice

Bernie Williams

One thing, I would like to go out and educate more. I would like to educate in our communities.

7 p.m.

Campaigns Director, Pivot Legal Society

Dr. Darcie Bennett

I'd like to see us use some of the legal mechanism we have in place that I think have been underused, particularly the charter. For example, the issue of housing has come up across the board today. We have a provision, section 7, that refers to security of the person, and that's never been interpreted as the right to housing. I think when we start to establish these things as rights, it becomes much easier to hold governments accountable for them.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Shelagh.

7 p.m.

Representative, B.C. CEDAW Group

Shelagh Day

I want to talk very briefly about root causes. We've heard a lot of people say colonization. Remember that the colonizer was also a patriarch. Patriarchy is part of what colonization means. We're still doing it. When we talk about matrimonial property, when we talk about Bill C-3, which just went through and has not taken out all of the discrimination in the Indian Act, the government is still legislating, overtly, about aboriginal women in a way it doesn't legislate about any other group of women in the country. So we are still in the process of playing out the patriarchy of the colonizer. Aboriginal women and children are still suffering from it. And that's part of the violence and part of the gravest conditions.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thanks, Shelagh.

Bruce.

7 p.m.

Team Commander, Project EPANA, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

S/Sgt Bruce Hulan

I'd just like to finish off on your comments about accountability.

As part of the RCMP, my project is ultimately responsible and accountable to the RCMP, but we're also accountable to the family members of the victims, and that's who we work for.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Michelle.

7 p.m.

As an Individual

Michelle Corfield

I think if we were to be accountable to ourselves and to the work we do, creating a national action plan and having the resources to implement that plan would be the accountable measure we could have. It's about having political champions like yourselves at all levels of government, and having the ability to create change and a movement of women supporting national change in how aboriginal women and children are treated, and the resources to make a difference.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Darlene.

7 p.m.

Collective Member, Aboriginal Women's Action Network

Darlene Rigo

What I'd like to say is that I don't think apologies are enough; we need resources.

I don't think resources are best spent on more policing and more law and order, but on helping women to break those cycles of violence, abuse, prostitution, and addiction. So we need resources at a grassroots level to help women deal with the layers of abuse they've faced that have led them into these lifestyles, and not to give up on them with half measures, like harm reduction, but to believe that, yes, some people can get out of that cycle. We have to believe that. We can't give up on the women who seem to be caught up in it--there are too many of them--because nothing will be done then.

So, yes, I think that's where we need to focus our attention.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

7 p.m.

Laura Holland Collective Member, Aboriginal Women's Action Network

AWAN thinks it's really important that all apologies are backed up with redress. We think apologies should be backed up with action.

I'm sorry, but with the apologies by Canada to aboriginal people for residential schools, the murders of children, land theft, cultural genocide and intended genocide, and white supremacy, all of these things, we must have redress. Apologies and restitution are not enough. It's shameful and humiliating. What we want is the restoration of our rightful places in our homelands. We see billions of dollars on a weekly basis that cross the borders of this country that belong to aboriginal women and children.

We want our rights restored, and we want to be treated with dignity, respect, and equality. We want everyone sitting at this table to look at what they are accountable for. Have they lived up to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Laura.

7 p.m.

Co-founder, Walk4Justice

Bernie Williams

And get rid of the Indian Act.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Will someone move that the meeting adjourn?

7 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

I so move.