Status of Women Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2011

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

You have received some funding from the Native Women's Association of Canada for a major initiative to gather information and set up databases. What funding have you received over the past five years? What significant measures came out of this major project?

[Katharine Irngaut]

We've received $1 million a year for five years through Status of Women and through government approval. That's all the money we've garnered for this work.

As for the concrete actions we've taken, the Evidence to Action from March 31, 2010, to September 30, 2010, was also through the Women's Community Fund, which was to act as bridge funding. So in total, we've had $5.5 million to date.

The concrete actions we have taken include actually building that network of supporters and partnerships between families and between sister organizations, and bringing together people on this issue of anti-violence against aboriginal women. We've gone out in the media, and we've collected all these voices. We've had vigils every single year for the last five years. We've had 84 as of last October 4.

So it's becoming an issue that we're proud people are taking on for themselves, and that's empowering women and families themselves to start their own organizations and associations. We try to hold family gatherings every year as well, and those bring a measure of support to the families they didn't know they had. It's very hard going back to your home community if you're the only one, if you feel there's no one you can talk to.

So in even just the four years of having family gatherings, I know of two family members who have taken the issue on and who have come far enough along in their healing journey to start speaking out for others. We're very proud to help support those family members and the efforts they make in their own communities. So I think just by inspiring, we've done a lot within the community by helping and supporting families.

[Jeannette Corbiere Lavell]

Could I just make one more comment on the positive results of the Sisters in Spirit funding that has taken place? We now have developed working relationships with various provincial policing organizations. For example, in its database, the OPP, the Ontario Provincial Police, had only two cases of aboriginal women who were missing or murdered, but according to our data there were 70. That's a big discrepancy. So we will be able to work together to enable the provincial policing organizations to do their work in a better way. I'm sure there will be a lot of other areas in which we will be able to assist them.

As well, the other big area is to share the information about the missing women out there on the streets, because we have models of tracking and finding from some cases in which they have been brought back. We have also been able to gather that kind of information.

So the opportunities are there to recognize this and to stop it. There are many homicide cases as well that haven't been solved, and we have been able to assist them in those.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you very much.

Unfortunately, c'est tout.

I will now be undertaking the questioning for the New Democratic Party, for seven minutes, and I would like to say welcome once again.

I'd like to pick up on Madam Simson's very good question regarding the article written by a member of Elizabeth Fry relating to the excessive incarceration of aboriginal, Métis, and Inuit women. According to the article, 30% of the female prison population is aboriginal, and 30% of those are experiencing issues with mental illness. I believe the article said that in terms of incarcerations, this represented an increase of 90% since about 2001.

I believe Madam's question was in regard to the cost to the women and their families and the broader community. I'd like to give you the opportunity to speak to that.

[Claudette Dumont-Smith]

Yes, there was an article put out in response to a study that was carried out by Ms. Mann, I think, and it did identify what you just said, that a disproportionate number of aboriginal women are incarcerated.

Although we haven't done any work in this area for quite a few years, we do know that aboriginal women have serious mental health problems. We do know there are no specific programs--not that we're aware of anyway--to address their mental health issues. We also know and believe that general health programs do not always respond to the specific needs of aboriginal women. Many of our aboriginal women will respond to culturally appropriate healers, or what have you. Especially when it comes to mental health issues, you can't apply the same set of tests or the same therapies when it comes to aboriginal women.

We're hoping that article will encourage the government maybe to approach us because we're always ready to work with the government to improve the health and well-being of our aboriginal women. Our arms are open on this issue to work with them to develop some programs that will really meet the needs of the incarcerated women.

I'm sure that the more we delve into this issue we'll find a lot of very bad scenarios, whereby a lot of these aboriginal women are probably in isolation. They're not connected to their families and they're not connected to the people in their communities. So I think it's an issue that has to come to the fore and has to be addressed.

And I reiterate that NWAC would be more than willing to work with the departments on this issue.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Does the approach have to come from government? Would you be able to go to government and say you need support programming help in this area?

I also wonder, with regard to the impact of the loss of the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, if that works into this.

[Claudette Dumont-Smith]

I forgot to mention that we are delving into the issue from another angle. We've received some funds through Indian and Northern Affairs Canada to look at it from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission aspect. We are just beginning. We have hired someone to look into where aboriginal women are incarcerated, so we're going to have an exact number, although I think the Mann study will help us on that.

Once we locate these women, we're going to have interviews with them to find out if they have accessed the funds that were available to other residential school victims, because probably some of them did attend residential schools and did not apply for the funds that have been available to other residential school students.

That will be one way that will give us an opening. And I'm sure when we carry out this work over the next year that a lot of the issues that were brought up in this article will help NWAC to pursue work on the issue of incarcerated aboriginal women. I know health will be one of the concerns that will be brought forward.

[Jeannette Corbiere Lavell]

I would just like to make one final comment. It is on the lack of resources to get legal assistance. This is perpetuating that high number of our women who are incarcerated because they cannot get a lawyer. When they go to court, they obviously get the strictest sentence. If they had lawyers, they possibly would not receive this kind of sentence.

So there they are, then, within these prisons, and for a longer period of time, and where, because of lack of communication and I guess the cutbacks, they're not able to get this culturally relevant programming that should be in place to help them deal with the system while they're incarcerated. On top of all of that, their children have been taken away, and they have no resources and possibly no way of even finding out or knowing where they are.

This is all compounding for them, so no wonder they're having mental issues. I would be devastated if I had to go through something like that. You're dealing with what may be a legitimate case against you, or maybe not. That's the issue. If our women were able to get some legal resources, I don't think we'd have as many in there.

Another issue is poverty. They're there because they don't have the money and they have to provide...and I don't think that can be applied to other Canadian women like it can to our women. We have younger women with many children who are having to deal with this.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Now we'll have a five-minute round. We're back to the Liberals.

Mr. Dosanjh.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to ask you two questions. Then you can respond.

One is a general question. Towards the end of your remarks, Ms. Lavell, you said that one is not sure whether the actions taken so far have reduced the level of violence against aboriginal women--or words to that effect. I want you to expand on that and tell me what you think.

The other issue is with respect to the British Columbia situation and the Oppal commission. You may have made a presentation to the commission. They're going around doing hearings. You might want to tell the committee what you've said if you have made representations, or you might want to tell us anyway.

I am slightly familiar with the situation because I was the Attorney General who first posted the $100,000 reward for information on the missing women, back in 1997 or 1998--I can't remember--and we brought in the America's Most Wanted show to publicize that situation.

Perhaps you can respond to both of the concerns I've raised with you.

[Jeannette Corbiere Lavell]

I'll ask Katharine to deal with the first one.

[Katharine Irngaut]

One of the methods of evaluation that we use is our research, and if research and advocacy are not funded, then I'm not sure how we can evaluate properly. I think research is a very big umbrella. A blanket statement to say that you won't fund research or advocacy means that our methods of evaluation are very limited. I'm not sure how we can proceed to see how well our activities are doing in the community if we're not able to go back and review them.

For the Oppal commission, we did go to the hearings on January 31. We made a presentation, or our bid, basically, to stand, to make a presentation during the commission. That would be to speak to the B.C. numbers that we have collected and the trends of violence that we've seen over the course of time.

[Jeannette Corbiere Lavell]

We're hoping that at the Oppal commission we'll be able to share the knowledge and the expertise that we have in other parts of Canada, to bring that to the commission, so they can address how to deal with the violence in British Columbia.

Having said that, I'll say that we are doing this because we believe in it and it is our mandate from our membership; however, as the president, I've been advised that we do not qualify for funding to be able to work at the B.C. Oppal commission because we're a national organization. So this is putting us in somewhat of a quandary, but we do believe that--

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Who actually said to you that you're not qualified because you're a national organization?

[Jeannette Corbiere Lavell]

It's in the criteria of the Oppal commission.

[Katharine Irngaut]

It has changed quit a bit. I think their parameters are open for interpretation, and I think that's where we're looking to this hearing to have those certain positions clarified.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

My apologies. I was caught up in another event.

I have lots of questions, but my two major questions.... I travelled in western Canada with the committee. What we saw was extraordinary, and what we heard was extraordinary, and we will be talking about it, reporting on it. And the systemic racism was something that just overwhelmed us.

One of the issues that came out in the hearings—and I'm picking up on Michelle and Irene's comments—was the number of women who were incarcerated, who were incarcerated in fact because they were victims of violence and responded in any one of a number of ways.

I've since had conversations with the Elizabeth Fry Society, and I'm hoping it will come before the committee. It has cited cases where access to legal aid, as you'd talked about, and various plea bargaining processes prevailed there.

Have you done any work on this particular area, that women who are in turn abused, respond, and then are incarcerated?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Very quickly, please.

[Jeannette Corbiere Lavell]

I don't believe we've done any specific work in that area.

However, we do know, just from hearing from our families in circumstances there, and from our other provincial organizations, that this definitely is what happens, because our women do not have those resources, so their voices don't get heard. Their side of the actual incident is not heard. And sometimes you get a language communication barrier and a reluctance, oftentimes, because of the shame that's involved in sharing in a court what actually happened. So our women do get incarcerated.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you.

Madam Cadman, please.

[Dona Cadman, Conservative, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you very much, ladies.

I have a little bit of a different question to ask. I would like to know this. Who do you think is violating your women? I would tend to think that it would be more non-white, because of the association between partners.

Do you have any men's programs to stop it—to help your men learn not to hit, not to drink, to become good men? Do you have programs like that?

[Claudette Dumont-Smith]

The short answer is no.

We're the Native Women's Association of Canada, and we do believe in the family and keeping the family intact. We don't have money for male-oriented programs. We barely have enough funding for female-oriented programs. So, no, we don't.

About the issue of who abuses the women, do we have any stats on that?

I know in the domestic violence situation that the rates are higher. But again, we need new data on that. The data is getting old, so there should be new studies to determine if all the actions that were done to raise the awareness of domestic violence in the eighties and the nineties have been effective. I think it's time we revisited that and did new research on that.

[Katharine Irngaut]

Aboriginal women and girls are more likely to be victims of stranger or acquaintance violence than non-aboriginal women. If we're talking in the realm of domestic violence, I think we'll have to look at those domestic partnerships. But if we're talking about missing and murdered aboriginal women, in terms of spontaneous violence that happens against them, or targeted violence, then I think we have to look at the entire population and the ideas in a lot of people's minds that women are disposable or aboriginal women are the lowest of the low.

I think there are definitely similarities between the two approaches, but they're very different issues, stranger or acquaintance violence versus domestic violence.

[Dona Cadman, Conservative, Surrey North, BC]

I think all of you women's groups should gather together, pick a leader, and start fighting. Join together across the nation and become one. I don't know if you can do it, but I think you'd become a very strong organization if you could do that. It would be amazing.

I'd like to give my remaining time to Mr. Armstrong, please.